[Randombob]

It should be quite clear to all those here that the mounting pressures of the ‘boomers’ and the ‘have-it-all’ generations will collapse all healthcare and social care systems to the point where euthanasia will be the only practical outcome to our situation. Nobody wants to have to think of these things much less carry out the deed, but in a life or death situation where it is to feed yourself (or your kids or partner) or feed your deranged old farts lingering on past their prime and contributing nothing but a bad smell. Obviously people differ. The resources to hand may justify keeping the hangers-on alive for a while, but if it is found to be a dead loss to expend precious recourses (like home-grown food and fuel) on those who return nothing, then the attitude of those generating the resources will quickly change.

“I’ve only been alive 20 years with a grim future whilst you old gits have lingered on for 80 years of good times and still expect more!!! – well screw you ”
–
This will be the new paradigm.

[Windmills]

I think the only people that will be euthanized are your own parents, if you haven't already done it as part of your "peak oil preprarations."

There is a great deal of financial excess that can be trimmed from our system simply by altering the American culture of alienated and splintered family structures, excessive materialism, goods and services redundancy, failed community cohesion, and self-absorbed individualism. While you are taking a chainsaw to your relatives, I, at least, will be establishing a multi-generational household with pooled resources, both financial and intellectual. My fathers and mothers have a great deal of valuable knowledge that needs to be passed on to us, just as one point among many.

Make sure you feed your grandparents' bodies to the pigs. Why waste, right?

[EnergyUnlimited]

There is also one other interesting point.
Those old are holding all deeds titles and young are holding nothing except of gargantuan debt.
They may have to be sold into slavery and/or fulfill various wants of those "old foxes" as a result.
So you should better hope for hard landing as under long emergency scenario you are absolutely screwed.

[theozarker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '�')��I’ve only been alive 20 years with a grim future whilst you old gits have lingered on for 80 years of good times and still expect more!!! – well screw you Razz ”

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Randombob', 'I')t should be quite clear to all those here that the mounting pressures of the ‘boomers’ and the ‘have-it-all’ generations will collapse all healthcare and social care systems to the point where euthanasia will be the only practical outcome to our situation. Nobody wants to have to think of these things much less carry out the deed, but in a life or death situation where it is to feed yourself (or your kids or partner) or feed your deranged old farts lingering on past their prime and contributing nothing but a bad smell. Obviously people differ. The resources to hand may justify keeping the hangers-on alive for a while, but if it is found to be a dead loss to expend precious recourses (like home-grown food and fuel) on those who return nothing, then the attitude of those generating the resources will quickly change.

“I’ve only been alive 20 years with a grim future whilst you old gits have lingered on for 80 years of good times and still expect more!!! – well screw you ”
–
This will be the new paradigm.

[Nike62]

Randombob, there are several kind of "denial attitude", and the "peak oil denial" is nothing, compared to "euthanasia necessity denial"...

[americandream]

Euthanasia, like nationalism is one of the last refuges of the incalcitrantly gluttinous capitalist scoundrel. Anything to ensure that he continues to engorge himself!

[lateStarter]

Ok. Seriously, I understand the concept of multi-generational families and acquired wisdom that can be passed on to future generations. If your parents and grandparents have something to contribute, more power to you. But what if they spent their whole life absorbed in the 'consumption' model and have nothing really useful to contribute, and are basically 'resource' consumers?

For all you 'purists', I'd like to see how long you held to your opinion if you were saddled with taking care of an 87 year old, semi-invalid woman who can't speak, walk without assistance, and is still basically the same selfish bitch she was in her younger days...

How would you like to clean shit off the bathroom walls several times a week because of her 'decorating' efforts? Would you be real excited to wake up at 2 am and see her sitting beside your bed (how she gets downstairs is still a mystery!) with a diaper that needs to be changed?

I still see that she has some good moments (watching the dogs play, etc) and I would be the last to take things into my own hands. OTOH, I often think about taking her for a long drive in the forest and dropping her off for a long walk.

I'm not sure if we will ever see euthanasia become official 'policy'. It may just end up as the default policy through neglect and abandonment as things deteriorate. If you had to bug-out for a 50 mile hike with your wife and 2 kids, what are you going to do with semi-invalid Grandma who requires medication you don't have and refuses to leave the hose she was raised in. Just asking...

[Randombob]

I couldn't agree more with the previous post. I have had the unfortunate experience of looking after the elderly and permanently baffled. It sucked. Now 'it' has been left to social care for 24-7 crap removal.

Whilst my grandad (who died at 89 of a stroke) was still fit, strong, mentally active and contributed a great deal of wisdom - my grandmother was essentially a zombie since she was 60 and is festering on at an old folks home into her late 80's. She never did anything of any use or benefit to enybody except have some kids and cook the dinner for my grandad. Whoopty-do.

Now, who's additional burden do you think would be borne willingly in a tough situation? Answer - those who have borne yours for so long

[theozarker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lateStarter', 'O')k. Seriously, I understand the concept of multi-generational families and acquired wisdom that can be passed on to future generations. If your parents and grandparents have something to contribute, more power to you. But what if they spent their whole life absorbed in the 'consumption' model and have nothing really useful to contribute, and are basically 'resource' consumers?

For all you 'purists', I'd like to see how long you held to your opinion if you were saddled with taking care of an 87 year old, semi-invalid woman who can't speak, walk without assistance, and is still basically the same selfish bitch she was in her younger days...

How would you like to clean shit off the bathroom walls several times a week because of her 'decorating' efforts? Would you be real excited to wake up at 2 am and see her sitting beside your bed (how she gets downstairs is still a mystery!) with a diaper that needs to be changed?

I still see that she has some good moments (watching the dogs play, etc) and I would be the last to take things into my own hands. OTOH, I often think about taking her for a long drive in the forest and dropping her off for a long walk.

I'm not sure if we will ever see euthanasia become official 'policy'. It may just end up as the default policy through neglect and abandonment as things deteriorate. If you had to bug-out for a 50 mile hike with your wife and 2 kids, what are you going to do with semi-invalid Grandma who requires medication you don't have and refuses to leave the hose she was raised in. Just asking...

[Ferretlover]

From the first time I saw the movie, Soylent Green, I have always thought that the Euthansia (clinic?) was a great idea.

[gg3]

Yo Ferret: that's Ethical Suicide Parlour.

It's not against TOS to discuss this stuff at a theoretical level.

First: If we start down the road of involuntary euthanasia, we already know where that takes us, and we fought a World War to put a stop to it.

Second: One can't lump all elders together into a single category. There is a significant risk to the "meme pool" by sacrificing those who have important knowledge and, yes, wisdom (f--- the stereotype, in fact it's true: wisdom is the higher-level abstraction of knowledge & values, and it does tend to accumulate over the years of one's life).

The most important asset of humanity is its accumulated knowledge and the continuity of knowledge across generations. Killing off older people puts that at serious risk.

Third: There is a difference between the effort needed to sustain someone who is physically disabled but mentally fit, vs. the effort needed to sustain someone with significant dementia.

So with all of that in mind:

People who are brain-dead should not be kept on artificial life support. If there is no hope of restored brain function, the person is already dead, so administer appropriate medications to shut down any residual lower brainstem activity and then administer something to stop the heart.

People who are demented could be supported with basic care but not given heroic lifesaving treatments: when their time comes, their time comes. Unfortunately we're going to see an increase in this population over time and this is going to raise serious moral issues.

People who have a "consumer entitlement" mentality are just going to have to get used to a more austere existence, and not getting what they want when they want it. Oh yes they'll yell and raise a fuss and smear their poo on the walls, but in a properly designed facility they will not be able to harm themselves or others. They will have to be treated in a manner analogous to two-year-olds: firm but kind discipline, and physically restrained from hurting others or breaking things. Opium in large quantities might be useful here: let them have all the opium they want, the more the merrier.

Agreed there is enormous room to cut out consumer BS in order to provide for essentials, including the moral essential of not "disposing" of "useless" humans. And yes there are moral essentials, in the sense of those values and practices that are necessary for the survival of humanity as a meme. That is, one of the things that makes us more than just another hominid is our moral sensibility. If we lose that, we have no basis to claim survival as a species.

As for myself, the place I draw the line is the point at which my brain goes. At which point I'll have to have the foresight to know what's happening and then, in a lucid moment, take the appropriate steps using whatever modaility (as planned in advance) will produce a peaceful death.

Face it folks, we're headed for a dieoff anyway, to the tune of 60% of the human population. And in the end, no one is exempt from death. Aside from dedicated warriors of the sort who would rather die in the act of defending those they love, for most of us, a peaceful exit is the preferred way to go. So each of us is going to have to consider the circumstances under which we are likely to die, and make our plans accordingly.

And for those who are depressed to the point where suicide seems the best way out: try this instead: if living gives you no pleasure, then turn your life over to helping others. If you can't serve yourself, serve the community. In the long run it might give you good reason to live and be glad you did. But in any case there is much work to do, and even if you're stuck in the black hole of depression, you can still serve the greater good.

[Ayoob]

Wow, I thought I was jaded until this one. You can't tell me you wouldn't take care of your own mothers when they're old. Come on. I don't really get along with mine at the moment, but when the day comes she's going to be able to live it out at home. I'm lucky she didn't throw me in a dumpster when I was a baby, and I owe her one.

I've seen the inside of Medicare nursing homes. It's absolutely brutal. It's a bedridden prison with a death sentence.

You better give your mom a hell of a reacharound kiss the next time you see her.

[Cloud9]

Lebensunwertes Leben: You will not always be young, my young friends. This is a slippery slope. I suggest you research T4. Realize once you institute state run euthanasia it will be run with all the efficiency of any other state run bureaucracy. Assuming that you are very skillful at survival, lucky, and in reasonably good health, you will inevitably find yourself on your knees in front of a mass grave, a victim of the very institution you created.

Or did you just have this final solution in mind for the others and not you and yours?

[Randombob]

GG3 - thats a supreme post, thanks.

Sadly, in the fullness of time, I think the 60% die-off rate will be fantastically optimistic. 'Civil' society will not raise objections to these topics of discussion as it will have surely collapsed and everyone must deal with it personally.

[Ferretlover]

"Yo Ferret: that's Ethical Suicide Parlour. "

What I liked about the ESP was the that one could make their own free will choice, not have it second-guessed (requiring the deposition of ___ doctors and ___ "loved ones."
Of course, the people could just do it themselves, but think of having to listen to your favorite surround-sound music, and looking at Imax pretty pictures as you relax into the end. I don't think many private citizens have that kind of set-up.

Of course, not crazy about the end result ("It's people!!").
It is certainly preferable to the government starving its citizens to death.

"I've seen the inside of Medicare nursing homes. It's absolutely brutal. It's a bedridden prison with a death sentence."
I worked in several private nursing homes before I was married-long, long ago.
The staff was always varied-some followed the rules in a cold, non-caring way, some followed the rules, adding their own personal touches of kindness, and some did the least amount of work possible, often eating the food they were supposed to be feeding the patients, and going through their things and stealing.
Their were different kinds of patients-some quite lucid and demanding to be treated as kings and queens (they Paid to be their), some who were pleasant , understood why they were there and agreed to it, some who were raving loonies-I remember one: you would get her dressed first thing in the morning and just as soon as she could, she took off All her clothes and would roll down the hallways as far as she could, yelling she wanted to go home.
There were many who had to be strapped to the handrails on their beds-all day.
Then, there were the relatives-again different kinds- those who visited often and loved their relatives, those who came to see how much closer their relative was to death, and those who never visited.

[AgentR]

Yall are assuming a much more placid world than I think you'll end up with. Geezers are gonna work till they drop; they'll linger for maybe a day or two after dropping and for the most part, that'll be that. Euthanasia wasn't necessary before modern medicine; and after the last of the advanced antibiotics and steroids are shipped; it won't even be a topic of conversation.

People die just fine on their own. More important, will be trying to keep a few of the old folks around longer than they'd like in order to keep the knowledge train rolling.

[MrBean]

Let us remember what the Greek word euthanasia really means: dying well, Good Death.

Obsessive fear of death is nothing but compulsive egomania, a collective mental disorder that most of humanity currently suffers from, and spreads its suffering.

But yet I bet that each and every one of us, when coming by a mortally wounded animal, has the natural human empathy to do the kind deed, to end its suffering. Just like we take our old and sick pets to the vet.

Let us also remember and understand that compulsive or "metaphysical" fear of death is a very Western thing, practically unheard of oriental and native cultures.

So, as the PO and the doomerosity involved is of Western doing, it is the Western people that need to relearn how to die and accept death. Especially with the massive die offs involved with PO.

I must say the Xian ideas obaut a single life and eternal afterlife in hell (or heaven) do not exactly help facing death well. As a matter of fact, there is no other hell than we ourselves create here on Earth or Middle world, despite all her glorious beauty.

In the final count, PO is all about spirituality, spiritual evolution and learning. We are hear to learn, and if we refuse to learn from wisdom, we learn by pain. To die, and learning to die, we start to learn about living as well.

[EnergySpin]

Assuming that there are still wolves after PO hits us, then I suggest that the problem of an aging, debilitated population may be solved by the method of the native Americans of the Alaska state: feed them to the wolves. Wait .. isn't this the theme of a short story by Jack London?

It is nice to see the peakapocalypse spirit keeps inspiring the doomer posters. Back to lurking status now