[turmoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turmoil', 'I')t's why insect species have survived for millions. They get by on nothing.

[bodigami]

"Will there ever be a truely collective wake up for mankind?"
Maybe, if not we deserve extinction.

[Johnvancouver]

Yeah, I have to agree with Zardoz. The wake up will come only when the pumps run dry at gas stations. Until then, governments world over will keep pumping liquidity into the financial system to keep the illusion of eCONomic prosperity alive.

Watching the stock markets everywhere racing for new highs day after day and commodity prices going to the moon, I get the feeling that this may be the final binge before the total collapse. The collective hang-over and wake up may happen sooner than we think.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'B')ut I see you still as defeatist. Where as I have dropped my opinions as to where humanity is heading can you say the same?

Uncharted waters best sums it up. To hold on to utopic beliefs in some cultural transformation coming up ahead is just as delusional as convincing yourself that we are inevitably heading toward wars etc.

It's nice to drop the baggage of having a belief that you try to twist reality around. Can you say the same?

[hi-fiver]

Memes as currently known are no more powerful than fads. There are genitic entitites known as lethal genes which demonstrate their potential upon manisfestation. Consequently their manifistation may bring on the onset of some strange genitic disease, or in some cases bring on some previously unheard tallent, never before exibited by this person. The lethal gene phenomin is well understood and under the influence of powerful memms could cause the selections of the said lethel genes to directionally select specific gene sequences that could prove highly beneficial to the threatened species...It would be impossible to predict the direction or the intensities of the development of these lethel genes...chance alone would find several benificial to the species.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turmoil', ' '){insects} do all this in their very short lives. We live 70 years and provide what? We haven't begun to think this way. But when we do we'll find that by being part of the world rather than "above" it allows us a better quality of life.

[turmoil]

I can't disagree with anything there, except that I wouldn't call what we could do "wishing." I think because there are so many of us and because we are able to harness huge amounts of energy, it changes our status. We can no longer merely destroy, because we destroy ourselves in the process. Instead of wishing, we are forced to live in a way that allows us to survive as well.

I think we will eventually see that we are killing ourselves, and react in a way that solves the problem. Could be 30-50 years from now because things usually have to get bad before they get better.

[manu]

Yes, right after the next nuclear war.

[Revi]

We are getting awfully maudlin, aren't we. We only have 70 years or so on the stage. We have to make the most of it. I figure I'll keep pushing my green message for another 25 years or so, and move aside for the next generation. They might not wake up, but it'll be hard to sleep soon.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day from Pheba, from the farm:
I read way too many books. I find wonderful quotes in books, then forget which book I acquired the quote from. This is a quote from a recent book I read. I forget which book, and who the author is, but it is not mine.
However, I feel it suits this discussion.
Quote is not exact, but is as much as I remember:
"our frontal lobes are too small, our adrenal glands are too large, and our sex organs were designed by committee.

Pheba
The first time I read that I cracked up laughing. How succinct and true.
We are stupid and shortsighted.
We panic, and let fear decide for us,
and our sex drive is off the wall.

[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'G')ood day from Pheba, from the farm:
I read way too many books. I find wonderful quotes in books, then forget which book I acquired the quote from. This is a quote from a recent book I read. I forget which book, and who the author is, but it is not mine.
However, I feel it suits this discussion.
Quote is not exact, but is as much as I remember:
"our frontal lobes are too small, our adrenal glands are too large, and our sex organs were designed by committee.

Pheba
The first time I read that I cracked up laughing. How succinct and true.
We are stupid and shortsighted.
We panic, and let fear decide for us,
and our sex drive is off the wall.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', ' ')Even sex drive can be converted to pure energy and do something more useful (now, with overpopulation) with it than screwing around.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', ' ')Even sex drive can be converted to pure energy and do something more useful (now, with overpopulation) with it than screwing around.

[Judgie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', ' ')Even sex drive can be converted to pure energy and do something more useful (now, with overpopulation) with it than screwing around.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '[')Even so, as we observe world around, there is no will to transform and all human intelligence and effort is directed towards continuation of status quo.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I')f humans can't manage sustainability in times of abundance they won't manage any better during times of environmental and energy limits.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turmoil', 'I') think we will eventually see that we are killing ourselves, and react in a way that solves the problem. Could be 30-50 years from now because things usually have to get bad before they get better.

[turmoil]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', 'Y')es, right after the next nuclear war.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('turmoil', '
')Profit. Profit seeking is why we are here, and profit seeking will be the answer.

[turmoil]

Sure, but don't get me wrong. I don't claim to know exactly how it will play out. I'm just going on the hunch that human self-interest can be redirected any way one wants. Thats why marketing is so powerful. Marketing creates and shifts paradigms. But in the case of overpopulation, the products basically sell themselves.

So, lets take a look at where we are now. Selling Carbon offsets is profitable and sustainable on its own because people are paying for people to plant trees. The business owners take a bit off the top. Done. Simpler than getting oil out of the ground, refining it, and distributing it. But there is more demand (and better marketing) for oil and gas than there is for trees. Right now most people, if they even knew what CO2 and methane are doing to Greenland, for instance, would still choose to drive 10k miles a year, than plant the equivalent dollar value in trees to avoid the melting. In other words, people are willing and able to pay for oil, but only able to pay for carbon offsets. Classic.

Another example is the current politics. Right now since oil is more profitable than carbon offsets, the oil lobby is able to delay any political action on climate (and oil depletion). This is happening globally.

Now lets try to predict the future. Dangerous, yet less so than not.

In the future, due to the ramifications of overpopulation and climate, it will be more profitable to get fewer resources to less people than a lot of resources to a lot of people. Due to the strain on the average income, people will be forced to pay for some things rather than others. But the reason that people demand all these things now is that they generally compliment each other. For instance, ketchup is complimentary for hot dogs and hamburgers. But if you can't afford the meat because meat prices have skyrocketed, you aren't going to be buying ketchup either, unless you like to put it on things you can afford. Therefore it is better to have both ketchup and meat be affordable because people just won't buy either if they can't buy both. Another example: if gasoline is too high, people won't buy cars, and vice versa. So part of the solution is to supply products to less people so demand by default goes down and thus price, allowing them to buy both complimentary products.

That is the microeconomic view. Now lets zoom out and see whats going on the national / global scale.

Right now many tax dollars are spent on things that just won't be a priority on the downslope. Lets take social security and Medicare. They are based on infinite growth of the work force, and therefore not sustainable by default. Eventually someone will say this and get elected based on the idea that the money can be put to better use, like for building nuke power plants to offset the natural gas and coal usage (for environment and economic reasons). Another is the salaries of government employees. They will be viewed as too high and that the money can help reduce energy usage somewhere in the system. But to sum this up, the tax dollars are not willing to be spent on sustainable things, but the money is there. When the effects of resource depletion and climate reach the average American, the politics will change. This type of shift will happen globally.

Now lets address voluntary conservation. Religion is the key. Take Ramadan, the Muslim month-long fast (going on now). Do you think this was created for spiritual purposes or for economic reasons? If we were to add up all the food and energy conserved during Ramadan you could probably feed Africa for the month. Now apply that to Christianity and you have yourself a built in regulator for food consumption / energy use. Interpretation is a powerful thing, especially when people pay people to tell them how to think. They are going to get their money's worth.

Again I'm not saying that this is exactly how it will play out, but I think people who are already in the mindset that consuming less will likely be necessary on everyone's part, will be better off. And I think more and more people are going to be in that mindset as we proceed. Basically what I'm getting at in the above paragraphs is that, we may not have an instant wake up, but human self interest applies to business, politics, and religion as well, not only the personal drive to "get mine," and that will cause things to shift relatively quickly.