[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'N')o, it really is amazing, JP. I was just poking at you.

[Ludi]

JP, I thought you were trying to push sustainability, not business as usual?


Business as usual certainly isn't sustainable and we should all probably be moving as quickly as possible toward an "Earth-centered" or "eco-friendly" or however you want to characterise it way of life which preserves and restores the Earth's life systems.


I thought that's what you're kind of about, JP. Am I confused?

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'J')P, I thought you were trying to push sustainability, not business as usual?


Business as usual certainly isn't sustainable and we should all probably be moving as quickly as possible toward an "Earth-centered" or "eco-friendly" or however you want to characterise it way of life which preserves and restores the Earth's life systems.


I thought that's what you're kind of about, JP. Am I confused?

[Ludi]

I agree, we'd do better to focus on the positive actions we can take now, than to dwell on possible doom.

[TheDude]

Myself, I'm interesting in tech solutions in of themselves; I like digesting this stuff. Also I'm concerned about doomerish or even equivalents of the Russia or Argentine post-collapse situation going down where I live (US), since as we all know it could become quite chaotic rather easily. Rather not face that any time soon. Anything that can cushion the blow somewhat I'm in favor of; I have my doubts about selling the Sustainable/Simple meme to many people, in the face of Madison Avenue trumpeting its antithesis screaming loud 24/7. Nothing wrong with trying, though, although good luck with those 30% who still approve of Bush's performance, etc.

In the face of big time collapse look out for hundreds of years of sanguinary warfare. Read up on post-collapse Rome, and the Dark Ages. I'd rather not foist that on billions of people alive now and yet to be born.

I suggested once that we need a few more labels beyond Doomer and Cornucopian, such as Pastoralist, which describes more than a few people here (including myself, I'll admit). Didn't go very far with that idea.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') wonder how common the "solution for business as usual" really is among us here on the board, though. I don't think it's very common. I think we've all pretty much settled on the idea things will change drastically no matter what we do. There are some who cling to the belief in the status quo, but I bet they are the small minority.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '
')
JPL: So far as treading lightly, is concerned, I think it's inevitable that unless people are told of the consequences of business as usual, they will want to continue business as usual. I hear what you're saying about turning people off but things aren't going to change by offering them "it would be nicer if we did this" type of incentives. The consequences of business as usual are dire and I really think we need doomer scenarios (but heavily rationalised with evidence and sound reasoning) to make people understand the need for change. But I think it is a losing battle. With even many TODers appearing to turn to cosy thinking, I'm not sure the argument will ever be won.

[Ludi]

Wow, I could hardly disagree with you more, JP. We really need to make this transition now. We, those who care, need to model a different way of life so others can see it is actually possible and pleasant. This isn't "business as usual," it's walking away from business as usual to something else. I think we all realise it takes years to do, so why not start now and encourage others to do so with us? Why not start to take these steps, why take steps back? That's neither necessary nor desirable, in my opinion.

[davep]

From your posts so far, are we agreed that "Can apocalyptic thinking replace oil?" is foolhardy?

I agree that we should strongly advise any neophyte peakoiler that sustaining our current lifestyle is impossible. I also believe that telling them we're doomed is equally foolhardy.

We need more people pushing on with genuinely sustainable and suitably intensive production techniques. Telling people to build a bunker and await the inevitable zombie hordes will become a self-fulfilling prophecy if their energy is not invested in guiding our future path.

Anyway, kudos JPL. My place still resembles your "before" picture, without the timber-framed charm.

[TonyPrep]

It's in trying to avoid the message, "we're all doomed", that the message, "we need to move to sustainability", is needed. Business as usual is not possible but it only translates to "we're all doomed" if we don't take that probable fact on board and work towards a different way of living together.

As so many people think that business as usual is possible and desireable (some posters here and on TOD even say that they are not about to throw in the towel on business as usual), the likelihod of an orderly (though not smooth) transition to sustainability is receding fast, in my opinion.

[Ludi]

TonyPrep, how do you respond to those who say the message "we need to move to sustainability" is naive? Who say that it is too late to change and actually impossible to make a cultural change?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'h')ow do you respond to those who say the message "we need to move to sustainability" is naive? Who say that it is too late to change and actually impossible to make a cultural change?

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ow, I could hardly disagree with you more, JP. We really need to make this transition now. We, those who care, need to model a different way of life so others can see it is actually possible and pleasant. This isn't "business as usual," it's walking away from business as usual to something else. I think we all realise it takes years to do, so why not start now and encourage others to do so with us? Why not start to take these steps, why take steps back? That's neither necessary nor desirable, in my opinion.

[Ludi]

JP, Is there a way to get die-off "off the table"?

Is there a way to discuss sustainability/other ways of living without "proslytizing"? Or are you suggesting we just don't talk about it at all?


I guess, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying....sorry....

[timbo]

JP like the pics and your intent to fix things up. One immediate thought though. Are you planning on insulating on the outside of all that lovely thermal mass(aka brick and stone) I'm seeing.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'F')rom your posts so far, are we agreed that "Can apocalyptic thinking replace oil?" is foolhardy?

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timbo', 'J')P like the pics and your intent to fix things up. One immediate thought though. Are you planning on insulating on the outside of all that lovely thermal mass(aka brick and stone) I'm seeing.

[Ferretlover]

I am sorry, but I can see no other way around this thought: I can not see the majority of people in the US showing even the tiniest interest in sustainability until resources become seriously depleted.
The American way of life has been acquire & consume, believing that everything will always be available. For most, it is a case of changing only when there is no other choice, not, as we should have been trained, to think ahead and make choices that would prevent problems.

IMHO, those of us who have been practicing it for years, or just getting into it recently, need to continue to offer it as a course of action to whoever will listen (I don't think there will many-see above). There will be a few who will listen, and take the advice to heart, and thereby stand a better chance of surviving.

[Ludi]

I agree, Ferretlover, most people aren't interested, and one can't make them interested, but one can encourage them to be interested, and offer examples and information for them when they're ready. The more people who have worked out different ways to live, the more choices/opportunities other people will have when the time for action is upon them.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'J')P, Is there a way to get die-off "off the table"?