[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'I')ts all pointless rhetoric.

[gnm]

Less bad is still "bad"

I see nothing that has resulted in population declines or "negative growth"...

-G

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')So, we shouldn't even try?

[PenultimateManStanding]

Lowering fertility rates is not the point. We are already in overshoot. Lowering fertility rates now is like closing the barn door after the horse is already out. I see this as indisputable but I would like to hear you argue the merits of this point of view.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'L')owering fertility rates is not the point. We are already in overshoot. Lowering fertility rates now is like closing the barn door after the horse is already out. I see this as indisputable but I would like to hear you argue the merits of this point of view.

[gnm]

Free hot-dogs with a vasectomy?
~shudder~

-G

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '"')It", in this case, being a local and completely voluntary program consisting of:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). Free abortion, birth control, and sterilization on demand.

6. Promote family planning and education/teach population ecology in the schools at an early age.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Then you haven't been paying attention. The goal is not to avoid die-off, but to make an effort to reduce the degree of overshoot to lessen the impact on the carrying capacity.

[kevincarter]

Are you backpedaling now?

How many people do you know that are concerned with population growth? And how many people do you know that have gone through an operation to become sterile? I guess both numbers won't match, at all. Those are personal choices that no one is making because no one gives a ****, even those who say the don't want children won't do it. I just know one single person that has gone through this kind of operation and he wasn't concerned a bit about population, he had other reasons.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kevincarter', 'h')e had other reasons.

[Alcassin]

MQ: Sure these policies have to be implemented and are implemented.

There are some myths about 3rd world countries, the number of children per woman is falling due to some development, industrialization and some population control policies. Iran implemented some, India just trying their new program paying each marriage for not having children for two first years of it.

India sterilized several hunderd thousand of people, China is fighting in very nasty way to keep one child policy but it works. Sure, it is still not enough but it is merely beginning.

In the 1st world the number of people will decrease also - only to keep and concentrate wealth of western nations. This is a very good scenario if we can manage. I see many barriers - like christian right - to make it.

There are some optimistic models based on hard data, but if the population decline + efficiency growth (energy input per unit produced) can't offset decline of fossil fuels (and I think they can't) the doom is very likely. Anyway one can't pretend having solutions while being pro-birth.

This way is better than so-called "nature's job". People don't like when "nature" tries to kill them - think of antibiotics, many of us should die when we were ill during childhood. Anyone for "nature's job"? Yeah - don't go pro-abortion - let the 5 yo children die from cold. "Nature's job" is return to the dark ages and I reject this concept, it's very dangerous.

[kevincarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kevincarter', 'A')re you backpedaling now?

[eastbay]

Shannymara,

Ya know, I still don't understand what it is you're trying to say.






(joke... just kidding )

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', ' ') Please read through the many posts I've made on this issue (not just the quotes selected by Monte) to see that my position is population control is nature's job, and that local efforts made by people are, in my opinion, natural.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alcassin', ' ')This way is better than so-called "nature's job". People don't like when "nature" tries to kill them - think of antibiotics, many of us should die when we were ill during childhood. Anyone for "nature's job"? Yeah - don't go pro-abortion - let the 5 yo children die from cold. "Nature's job" is return to the dark ages and I reject this concept, it's very dangerous.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kevincarter', 'H')ow many people do you know that are concerned with population growth?

[Ludi]

I'm not sure it's of any help to use the words "natural" and "unnatural" because so often the words are just used to denote what we like or don't like. The natural is good, the unnatural bad. Perhaps more useful would be a discussion about the possible benefits or drawbacks of each approach. Personally, I can imagine a globally shared system of values which would lead to local actions which may or may not be the same as some other community's actions. For instance, one community might have more success paying women not to have children, whereas another might have more success giving free vasectomies.

A variety of approaches emulates the diversity of living systems, and perhaps offers more opportunity for success and appeal to different groups of people.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ') Personally, I can imagine a globally shared system of values which would lead to local actions which may or may not be the same as some other community's actions. For instance, one community might have more success paying women not to have children, whereas another might have more success giving free vasectomies.

A variety of approaches emulates the diversity of living systems, and perhaps offers more opportunity for success and appeal to different groups of people.