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Life and Death

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If you were in a lifeboat rated for 8 people with 24 on board, and more tried to board, would you:

Poll ended at Sat 08 Sep 2007, 19:28:39

Let them on board.
9
No votes
Fend them off.
28
No votes
Other (must be explained)
8
No votes
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 19:59:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'Y')es, I think assuming that "responsibility" is megalomaniacal and a really, really bad idea. I think it's dominionist.


There you have it, folks.

Overshoot your planet, decimate it's environment, and then refuse to accept responsibility for your actions.

In fact, insist that it's a "delusion of grandeur" to even try to clean up your own mess.

Wasn't it megalomania and a notion of superior dominance that brought us to this point?

Mankind has no responsibility to future generations to do anything about exceeding the earth's carrying capacity and ravaging it's environment?

Then all environmental laws were just mental excercises in delusion?

So, if it's not our responsibility, then whose is it?

Who do we sue?
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:13:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'Y')es, I think assuming that "responsibility" is megalomaniacal and a really, really bad idea. I think it's dominionist.


There you have it, folks.

Overshoot your planet, decimate it's environment, and then refuse to accept responsibility for your actions.


Monte, you know in the past I have generally agreed with you, but I have to tell you ... I think you are being intentionally obtuse and just a little rude in all these recent die-off threads.

Shannymara has not overshot the planet.
Shannymara has not decimated it's environment.
Shannymara has not refused to accept responsibility for her actions.

Shannymara - like you, like me, like Ludi, in fact ...like everyone on these forums - has inherited a great big, globbed up mess. But unlike a lot of people on the planet, she - like me, like you (I think), like Ludi and like a lot of people on these forums - has decided to try to improve her part of the world she has inherited.

And that's really all each of us can realistically do is to change our own part of the world. Because if we each changed our own small part, it would add up to a major change across the globe. But the second you start trying to change someone else's part of the world for them, then you become part of the problem.

Now if it makes you feel better, please feel free to go ahead and call me ignorant like you have called everyone else lately.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:18:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I') accept responsibility for my actions. You are free to continue lambasting me and making unjust accusations, but that doesn't make you correct. Rant away.


You made the statements. You have to live with them.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:27:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', ' ')Monte, you know in the past I have generally agreed with you, but I have to tell you ... I think you are being intentionally obtuse and just a little rude in all these recent die-off threads.


And am going to hold people's feet to the fire even more. For anyone to say it's a "delusion of grandeur" to try and reduce a population in overshoot, is just beyond the pale.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hannymara has not overshot the planet.
Shannymara has not decimated it's environment.
Shannymara has not refused to accept responsibility for her actions.


So, it's everyone else, but not her?

We all contribute and we are all responsible.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:33:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
So, it's everyone else, but not her?

We all contribute and we are all responsible.


As I said, intentionally obtuse. You didn't even read what I wrote. Which is a complaint you have been hearing a lot lately. :cry:
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:36:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
So, it's everyone else, but not her?

We all contribute and we are all responsible.


As I said, intentionally obtuse. You didn't even read what I wrote. Which is a complaint you have been hearing a lot lately. :cry:


I read every word.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:41:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', ' ')I don't recall using that phrase, I believe I said "megalomaniacal" and "dominionist," but whatever.


That's what megalomania means. A mental disorder characterized by delusions of grandeur.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n any case, nobody has to "try" to reduce the population, nature's going to take care of it, which is as it should be.


Good lord. With statements like this, who needs to belittle you?
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 20:51:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')hanks, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Please keep them coming.

"Can't refute the message, attack the messenger." :lol:


Exactly, you belittle yourself.

Why should nature clean up the mess we made?

Earth is ours to do with as we see fit with no responsibility for trashing it?

From biology we learned that we weren’t specially created by God to have dominion over all livings things, but evolved along with millions of other species.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 21:44:03

--
Last edited by Hawkcreek on Sun 19 Aug 2007, 21:16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 22:39:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'C')ome on Monte. 55 out of the 129 posts on this thread have been yours. You are coming across as a holy-roller preacher instead of the messenger you claim to be.
Take a break from the self-appointed prophet of doom role. You can't be spending much time on all of those other activities you claim, when you post this much.


Saying we must take responsibility for our overshoot and reduce the population makes me a prophet of doom?

Shannymara's position is indefensible and repugnant.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Stratovarius » Sun 12 Aug 2007, 23:13:42

I don't frequent these boards much, I have better things to do, so forgive me for being ignorant.

But I think the disagreement between Monte and Shannymara has to do with their intentions behind their statements, or something... I think Shannymara sees no point in trying population control; it's hopeless. We're already overshooting by billions of humans and the countdown to catastrophe is almost complete, why start implementing all these population control methods now? If we are going to do what Monte has suggested, this should have been done a long, long time ago, and not only that, we're all screwed up with what exactly we value collectively as a society. Nobody cares about anything reverting to our more "human" ways (debatable I guess).

I don't think Shannymara is being apathetic about population control, there's just no point now, might as well let people keep to themselves and nature will do the natural thing and slowly (or maybe quickly) cull people from the planet.

Personally I think overshoot has more to do with what we value as humans and our shrinking perspective for the future, and for others. So what if we prevent die-off/collapse? What then? What if the people that are left still have the materialist-mentality everyone loves to bitch about on this board? What if we're still just as apathetic or perhaps even more so now that we don't have to worry about a die-off anymore.

Humans aren't evolved enough yet, give us like 100 million year give or take a few million and perhaps then, we will be mature enough as a species to handle such a delicate environment and, to handle ourselves in this existence.

Read Freud. :D

A shot in the dark, peace out.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 01:17:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'I') get your point, Monte, but I choose other. I would rotate people in the water.


You are dodging the question by creating options out. That is not the point of the poll.

You have three ultimate choices here:

Fend off or let aboard.

Or give up your spot.

Given the three, what would you do?


Ah, but the point of my answer is that the answers in life are not found in the 'givens'.

You structured your poll to get the range of answers you thought appropriate. If I don't see it that way it doesn't make my answer invalid.

BTW, my answer is how the 8 strongest survive, not the 8 luckiest or the first 8. Evolution takes time. You can't win the long game with violent outbursts as your primary means of coping. That, instead, takes fitness.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 01:20:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'C')an we have this discussion in one thread, or do you insist on maintaining several threads about the same thing in order to confuse everyone and make it easier to pick quotes out of context? Please.


You can't merge poll threads.

And I don't pick quotes out of context.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 02:13:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Stratovarius', '
')But I think the disagreement between Monte and Shannymara has to do with their intentions behind their statements, or something... I think Shannymara sees no point in trying population control; it's hopeless.

I believe that Shannymara is against ideas of population control or reduction by resorting to some Nazi alike global authoritarian government, as required per Monte's designs.
Such approach would increase overall suffering and ultimately achieve nothing as enforcing structures would not last long in any case.
So Shannymara (and many others including me) prefer Nature to take care of the problem, as this is the best way to go forward.

It is unrealistic, not to say outright utopian to expect that global structure required to carry on Monte's ideas could be formed in any case.
We can already clearly observe deterioration of global order.
That trend is driven by decreasing energy supplies, so it is safe to assume that it is here to stay for good.
This means that humanity will return to work within national/tribal structures during decades to come, supernational structures will lose their influence and Monte is particularly displeased with that.
This does not fit into his vision of future world, yet he is realizing that there is no realistic alternative for this fate, so he is annoyed and waffling at anyone who points it out.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby cube » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 05:06:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '.')..
If you were shipwrecked at sea, miles from land, in a lifeboat rated for 8 people with 24 on board, and more survivors swam to your boat, would you let them aboard, or would you fend them off?
...
I would invite them on board pretending to help them. But my true motive is to kill them so I can eat their flesh and increase my chances of survival. :P
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Chesire » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 08:03:36

Give up my spot and encourage other people with the best chance of surviving the water to do the same. I have no fear of death and it would be preferable to bashing in women and children's head with an oar to survive. There is a great deal of survival courage in this thread there is very little moral courage.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Resurrection » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 08:27:40

Not only would I fend off the people in the sea, I'd attempt to throw out at least 10 others.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Resurrection » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 08:32:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chesire', 'G')ive up my spot and encourage other people with the best chance of surviving the water to do the same. I have no fear of death and it would be preferable to bashing in women and children's head with an oar to survive. There is a great deal of survival courage in this thread there is very little moral courage.


Very noble but I'm guessing that you do not have kids of your own to look after. I'd bash women and children on the head if it means saving my own blood, rather then give up and let them die.

Harsh, unfair, brutal, that's the future for ya. If you put moral over survival, you might as well off yourself now and save the drama in a few years time.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 08:40:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Resurrection', 'V')ery noble but I'm guessing that you do not have kids of your own to look after. I'd bash women and children on the head if it means saving my own blood, rather then give up and let them die.


Nobody said it wasn't your children in the water. Anyway, good chance some of the little kids you are bashing on the head with the oar have a parent already in the boat, so I don't think you would last long.
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Re: Life and Death

Unread postby Chesire » Mon 13 Aug 2007, 09:20:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Resurrection', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chesire', 'G')ive up my spot and encourage other people with the best chance of surviving the water to do the same. I have no fear of death and it would be preferable to bashing in women and children's head with an oar to survive. There is a great deal of survival courage in this thread there is very little moral courage.


Very noble but I'm guessing that you do not have kids of your own to look after. I'd bash women and children on the head if it means saving my own blood, rather then give up and let them die.

Harsh, unfair, brutal, that's the future for ya. If you put moral over survival, you might as well off yourself now and save the drama in a few years time.


Well answering hypothetical questions is really irrelevant .

Since in essence if you live in an industrialized country you already are bashing women and children in the head of non industrialized countries. Based on a dollar a day average my utilitiy bills alone would support 10 people for a year. The can of coffee I buy would be 10 days wages for millions if not billions of people. I am certainly not out protesting genocide in any area of the world because frankly I don't give a shit . So passively I and numerous other people already have blood on their hands .

The fact that I answered one specific scenario question directly as asked. Hardly implies anything at all. If you wish to extrapolate some "hidden meaning" to Monte's question by all means do so. I find that highly amusing . Because seriously I wager that the vast majority of people who will survive peak oil. Are reading this forum for shits and giggles and are not posting. Or they are tracing IP's and marking dots on maps for treasure troves to plunder or tax during or after the crash . But load up and be prepared and bed down in your bunker and tell yourself all is well and then click your heels together 3 times and tell yourself there is no place like home.
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