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What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby pogoliamo » Sat 28 Jul 2007, 19:18:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Qolio', 'C')omments?


You got it. Add the political influence and military power of the USofA
to the arguments why holding dollars. The USD is 100% war-backed currency.

Or what? You beleive in the democratization od Iraq?

Let's make that clear now. The USA is prining dollars to buy oil and
exports its inflation to the rest of the World. The drawback is that
oil price denominated in dollars will constantly go higher forever.
The price of oil in other currencies has not increased at all, look for
example at the price of oil in AUD or in EUR or in GBP. How can
I make it more obvious the dollar denominated oil is paying a role ?
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby cube » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 18:53:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Qolio', 'O')k, I hope someone can tell me if I've understood correctly. (The numbers are just examples, don't take them seriously.)
1) Because oil is traded in dollars, other countries must have huge dollar reserves, lets say $1 trillion.
There are some nations that have US currency reserves ridiculously far in excess of their oil importing needs...Japan, China, Taiwan, South Korea,....

And what about oil producing nations themselves...Saudi Arabia, Russia, Kuwait.....? They certainly do NOT need to hold onto US dollars to buy oil if you know what I mean....but yet they still have plenty of US currency reserves. *grin*

anybody want to explain that? hmmm?
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby pogoliamo » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 19:26:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'a')nybody want to explain that? hmmm?


Logical question. And I think there's no tecnical answer that you are
looking for. Some of the OPEC counttries are holding dollars as a
hedge to low oil price since eir economies are vulnerable if price
of oil sharply drops.

Politcs are part of economy fundamentals but you cannot put a
figure to objectivily measure them... Does news like this help you
resolve the dilemma?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bush to Urge Arms Sale to Saudi Arabia, Gulf States
By Holly Rosenkrantz

July 28 (Bloomberg) -- The Bush administration will ask Congress next week to approve an arms-sale package to Saudi Arabia and five other Persian Gulf countries that may total more than $20 billion, Rebecca Goodrich-Hinton, a Defense Department spokeswoman, said.

Included in the package are advanced satellite-guided bombs, fighter-aircraft upgrades and new naval vessels. The administration also plans to announce a new 10-year military aid package to Israel and Egypt. The steps are part of an effort by the Bush administration to counter Iran's rising influence.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... r=politics
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby cube » Sun 29 Jul 2007, 20:11:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pogoliamo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'a')nybody want to explain that? hmmm?


Logical question. And I think there's no tecnical answer that you are
looking for. Some of the OPEC counttries are holding dollars as a
hedge to low oil price since eir economies are vulnerable if price
of oil sharply drops...
So US dollars are being used as a "safe" place to store one's savings? Some individuals make more then they spend. The same can be said for some nations. This extra savings have to go somewhere and it seems a lot of nations like to store this in the form of US currency reserves. As much as some people like to bash the US dollar (myself included) it is still the most stable currency now.

Even at today's oil prices there are some countries who cannot get their financial house in order. If Vladimir Putin was running Venezuela it would be debt free and a net creditor nation. Unfortunately you've got Hugo Chavez (a self identified "socialist liberal" and proud of it) who thinks it's better to invest the nations resources into giving people subsidized gasoline at 13cents/gallon rather then paying off the national debt. Despite double digit inflation Hugo is actually a pretty popular politician.

Back on topic....So here's the $10 Trillion dollar question.

What would happen if the rest of the world came to the conclusion that US dollars are no longer a safe (or the safest place) to store savings? :wink:
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby perdition79 » Mon 30 Jul 2007, 01:34:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'B')ack on topic....So here's the $10 Trillion dollar question.

What would happen if the rest of the world came to the conclusion that US dollars are no longer a safe (or the safest place) to store savings? :wink:


Three words: Masterblaster runs Bartertown. (And isn't it a $58 trillion dollar question?)
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby gampy » Mon 30 Jul 2007, 03:12:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', 'D')ude. The only reason the US can maintain it's current trade deficit and economy is because oil is priced in US dollars.
TOTALLY DISAGREE

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', 'T')here are many threads on this site devoted to the petrodollar and implications thereof.

Search "petrodollar" and you will find the answer to your question.
There seems to be 2 schools of thought:
1) people who believe in this petrodollar theory
2) and of course people who don't


I am convinced that petrodollar recycling is why the US can have it's cake and eat it, too.

But obviously some don't follow that line of reasoning. I can't convince you if others can't.

But this link should offer a view that you might want to consider.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6175505194

Some like Mr. Bill seem to believe that it is more complicated, and there are broader factors, but it seems to me that dollar supremacy in commodity sales worldwide is what allows the US economy to function as is.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 30 Jul 2007, 06:10:18

Well, I doubt that I am dead wrong, considering one of the reasons you gave us for Gulf oil producers to hold USD reserves was insurance against falling oil revenues.

pogoliamo wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ogical question. And I think there's no tecnical answer that you are looking for. Some of the OPEC counttries are holding dollars as a hedge to low oil price since eir economies are vulnerable if price of oil sharply drops.

Politcs are part of economy fundamentals but you cannot put a
figure to objectivily measure them... Does news like this help you
resolve the dilemma?


For one that supports my view that in what currency you hold your reserves matters. That is the source of demand for USDs, not to buy oil for an oil exporter.

What about competition between countries in non-oil commodities? Surely these countries can agree to denominate their exports and imports in non-USD currencies? That would also reduce transaction costs.

But the reality is that FX transaction costs are very low. Certainly, much lower than the transaction costs associated with buying and selling physical oil based on its grade, sulfur content, ease of physical refining, transport contraints, time of year, etc. In comparison with physical crude trading and chartering vessels, I can move the money from local currency to USD and back into euro at the click of a mouse or by picking up the phone to any bank in London. This is a poor argument. If you want we can compare transaction costs for buying and selling certain assets like equity or bonds to FX transaction costs. You will immediately see how low transaction costs are in FX.

So, not to get off subject, but why is Bursa Malaysia offering a new USD-denominated palm oil futures contract? Malaysia has long had defacto currency controls to protect the value of the MYR against the USD and capital movements in general, for example, by making it illegal to short the MYR in the forward market.

Now Bursa Malaysia is offering a futures contract in USD even though Malaysia is the largest exporter of palm oil in the world? Does Malaysia need more USD reserves to pay for imports? No, they are a net exporter. They have a positive trade balance, a budget surplus and their current account is also in plus. And most of their trade is with the rest of Asia, so they do not need USD.

Why? It is simple. They are offering a USD palm oil contract instead of a ringget-backed palm future because the JADE (Joint Asian Derivative Exchange) between the CBOT and the Singapore Exchange are also offering a USD denominated palm oil contract and they do not want to lose market share.

Simple competition. Due to capital controls in Malaysia and the size of MYR capital markets, more commodity buyers and sellers have the ability to transact in USD than MYR, so if you want to maintain market dominance you switch your contract into the more popular currency to attract new clients or risk losing existing customers.

RE EUR/USD it of course has not gone from $0.80 to $1.3853, but more accurately from $1.1900 at launch to a low of $0.8225 in 2000 from where it rallied back to $1.3853. These are nominal exchange rates. More important are trade-weighted or purchasing power exchange rates. But it does illustrate my other point that flexible exchange rates make the currency in which oil is priced irrelevant because of course a falling USD makes oil cheaper in euros (in this example).

The argument that oil priced in USD artificially inflates the value of the USD does not hold up to scrutiny. Otherwise there would be a positive correlation between the value of the USD and the price of crude. There isn't one. A point that oil producers make when they complain about the USD being a lousy store of value.

The reality is that oil is produced around the world in many local currencies like RUB, NOK, CAD, CNY, GBP, etc., and except in the USA sold around the world in many currencies including those mentioned as well as AUD, EUR, MYR, etc.

Oil producers must sell at least some of their export receipts received in USD to pay for local production costs, to pay salaries to employees, and royalities and taxes to the government as well as needing foreign exchange to import oil production equipment and expertise.

Also, oil produced and consumed in Russia, Norway, the UK, Canada, China, etc. is never converted first into USD and then back into local currency. It may be expressed on the balance sheets of oil companies in common units in USD terms for IAS/GAAP reasons, but then they would be offset with either currency gains or losses from buying and selling in local currency terms.

This is an important distinction for several reasons. One anyone taking global oil production at 85 mbpd and an average oil price of $70 per barrel is grossly overstating actual oil purchases and therefore nominal demand for USD. Then as many of these export receipts have to be repatriated to pay for local production costs this also cuts effective USD demand. And of course locally produced oil that is consumed locally will never be converted into USD in the first place.

This will become even more important in the future as existing oil exporters use more oil for their own domestic economies and export less to the rest of the world. Also, if Iran exports crude and then turns around and imports refined products then this also reduces their export receipts as measured in USD, EUR or Iranian Reals (IRR).

So to once again summarize due to flexible exchange rates the price of crude oil reflects global demand and world wide supply not the currency in which commercial contracts are denominated.

Due to convention that is still overwhelming USD for international contracts. But not all oil is produced, traded or consumed internationally, so the nominal demand for USD is grossly over-stated.

A weak USD makes crude cheaper in other currencies that appreciate again the USD due to its weakness. A good transaction currency does not necessarily mean a good store of value in the long-term.

The USD is used as well for non-oil imports and exports as well as a book-keeping currency. This is part of the USD reserve currency status, but also has to due with the depth and liquidity of its capital markets as well as capital controls imposed elsewhere.

OPEC and non-OPEC oil producers as well as Asian and European exporters have the flexibility to repatriate all or some of their export receipts. When they choose to keep those receipts in USD rather than say EUR or IRR it is for practical purposes. That is not to say that those exports have to be denominated in USD.

Demand for USD denonimated assets comes from a conscious decision on the part of net savers such as OPEC and non-OPEC producers to invest in USD assets not from paying for oil in USD.

Some oil importers may wish to hold USD to pay for import cover including oil purchases, but they would have to sell local currency like TRY, KES, ILS, ZAR, etc. to pay for energy imports anyway. It makes no difference to them whether they need to buy USD, EUR or even JPY to pay for their imports. If they have a strong local currency, then imports are cheaper. If they have a weak local currency then imports will be more expensive in any case.

So you may disagree with parts of my argument, but I doubt I am dead wrong? ; - )
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby cube » Mon 30 Jul 2007, 16:54:32

One of the arguments of the Petrodollar theory is that the USA used it's position as world superpower to "bully" oil exporting nations into accepting dollars for oil. Supposedly there's a very "special agreement" between the USA and Saudi Arabia. SA sells oil for dollars and the USA makes sure there's no "regime change".

Playing devil's advocate here lets assume this is true. Furthermore lets assume the USA "muscled" it's way against some of the smaller nations like Kuwait and the UAE. okay fine whatever.

But that does not explain certain things. Why does Russia also accept US dollars for oil? Please don't tell me the USA thinks it can push Russia around like what happened to Iraq. If Vladimir Putin was reading this he'd get a good laugh out of that one. :P

How do you explain that? --- anymore petrodollar theorists wish to step forward?

Sorry folks the petrodollar theory has more holes in it then a block of swiss cheese.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby pogoliamo » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 05:11:51

Cube, current developments show that all these countries
actually made a wrong choice in hoarding dollars.

You are using their mistake and wrong decision as an argument
for the case you are making why dollar holds value better then
other assets of currencies.

The answer to your question is - Because they were wrong!

Do not underestimate what legacy means in the financial world,
the trend of diversification away from USD is intact, but it
would take time, years, decades. You cant just buy some stuff
with your trillion in the weekend...

You are witnessing it! But you are denying it. By reflex!
The CB's are in similar situation, but it is changing!
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 06:03:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pogoliamo', 'C')ube, current developments show that all these countries actually made a wrong choice in hoarding dollars.

You are using their mistake and wrong decision as an argument
for the case you are making why dollar holds value better then
other assets of currencies.

The answer to your question is - Because they were wrong!

Do not underestimate what legacy means in the financial world,
the trend of diversification away from USD is intact, but it
would take time, years, decades. You cant just buy some stuff
with your trillion in the weekend...

You are witnessing it! But you are denying it. By reflex!
The CB's are in similar situation, but it is changing!


Brad Setser's RGE Monitor is always a good read. Here he refers to the consequences of diversifying away from US bonds by Asian exporters (and sovereign funds like OPEC oil producers)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he FT and Lex also recognize that the US cannot realistically expect China to finance the US current account deficit by building up an undiversified portfolio that contains only the lowest-yielding of US assets forever. Lex:

“In the short-term, it was all too tempting. The savings of Asian and oil-exporting countries have helped to fuel the current boom. Their purchases of Western government bonds have funded the external deficits created by profligate consumers and lower real interest rates, boosting asset prices. But now the long-term consequences of the bargain are becoming clear. … . Governments are moving from lending to the West to owning chunks of it.”

Nicely put. But purchasing companies raises a lot more concerns than purchasing bonds. There clearly is a policy debate brewing over how the US and Europe should respond to the rise of sovereign wealth funds.
Source: The shift toward sovereign wealth funds: the policy debate

However, I think you are missing the point that deficits always get funded somehow no matter in what currency they are denominated.

Let me qualify that. Yes, you can have debt defaults. And yes, you can force creditors to take a haircut by unilaterally writing down the face value of the debt.

But in general CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICITS = SURPLUSES and TRADE SURPLUSES = DEFICITS the holes being plugged by the BALANCE OF PAYMENTS between nations.

If you adopt a flexible currency regime of floating exchange rates then trade imbalances would right themselves over-time. Expensive imports cut back consumption, while a cheaper currency stimulates exports.

If you adopt a single currency you do not have a balance of payment problem, but you can still have trade surpluses and deficits.

Within countries this is why some areas of the country become economically depressed while others experience asset price inflation. However, eventually when prices get cheap enough firms move in and set-up lower cost production. There can be significant time lags of course.

However, if you adopt a pegged currency pair then you can have both trade and current account imbalances when one or another currency is fundamentally under-valued vis a vie its competitor. This is because trade occurs because one currency is artificially under-valued and not due to comparative advantages, and there is no market mechanism to correct this situation.

What makes a good transaction currency like deep, liquid markets as a place to store value until you need it are needed to effect commercial transactions. Obviously, persistant budget and trade deficits as well as large unfunded liabilities are undermining the US dollar's role as a long-term store of wealth. That does not mean it is not still a good transaction currency if it is more liquid than other currencies. Especially currencies that are pegged, non-convertible or subject to capital controls.

But what these state wealth management agencies are doing also makes little sense either. They are just shifting the burden from the central bank buying low yielding US treasuries at knock-down interest rates, that encourage deficit spending and a dearth of personal saving, to the state agency that can go about buying stakes in public companies. On one hand they take currency and interest rate risk. On the other hand they accept market risk. China's stake in Blackstone is already worth $500 million less than what they paid for it two months ago.

Are central banks or their agents better value investors than collective markets? I doubt it, but lets take this to its natural conclusion.

Persistant deficits from price signals that are not reaching producers or consumers because of currency manipulation mean that the trade deficits will never close. So these state agencies will have to go on buying more and more stakes in foreign companies with their sterlized foreign exchange reserves, while mindlessly printing domestic currency to offset that sterilization. That will keep stoking their own domestic inflation and finding its way into over-priced assets like real-estate, while stock markets elsewhere become over-valued because state agencies continue to buy foreign shares.

I hope you can see where this is headed? You end up with expensive shares trading at 50 times earnings. Which is the same as expensive bonds that yield less than inflation. It don't make sense.

UPDATE: global capital looking for a home...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Capital Controls

When APEC finance ministers last met in Hanoi in September,
they warned that global capital imbalances may hurt developing
economies. The Institute of International Finance in Washington
estimates investment in emerging markets will reach $469 billion
this year, bringing the total to almost $1.5 trillion since 2005,
twice as much as in the prior three years.
In December, the Bank of Thailand tried to impose capital
controls to stem a flood of money that had driven gains in the baht
that were hurting the nation's exporters. The measures backfired,
driving the benchmark SET Index down 15 percent in one day.
In June, New Zealand's central bank sold the nation's currency,
known as the kiwi, for the first time in 22 years to cool gains
that drove it to the highest level since 1985. It traded at 77 U.S.
cents at 1:40 today in Wellington.
South Korea's Deputy Finance Minister Kim Sung Jin said last
week his government was ready to take action to ease the won from
the strongest level in a decade.

Currencies Fall

``The amount of international capital looking for places to
invest is noticeably larger than a few years ago,'' said Malcolm
Cook, program director for Asia and the Pacific at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney. ``How do you deal with huge inflows, when
other interests are for the free movement of capital?''
The past week's currency drops may help alleviate some concern.
The Indonesian rupiah yesterday fell to near the weakest in five
months and the Malaysian ringgit and South Korean won slipped to
their lowest in July. New Zealand's dollar has lost 5.2 percent
against the U.S. currency since July 24.
The moves in credit, currency and stock markets ``could be
seen as a return to normality'' said Shane Oliver, chief economist
at AMP Capital Investors in Sydney. ``If it continued to deepen,
finance ministers might be concerned about systemic risk, but at
this stage they'll be fairly relaxed.''
U.S. Treasury Secretary Paulson described the widening of
credit spreads and drop in stocks as a ``wake-up call'' to
investors on July 27.
Source: Bloomberg, July 31st

Because the trade deficit is the product of an under-valued currency in the first place. If allowed to correct you would close the trade deficit on its own. Whether or not OPEC or non-OPEC oil producers or Asian central banks and their wealth management agencies buy stocks, bonds or property is quite besides the point. They are still stoking-up the value of foreign markets, while starving their own domestic capital markets of needed investment. Which is why returns on foreign investment outside of the USA (and the EU) are consistantly higher than returns in the USA (or the EU).

And when these state agencies get tired of buying USD denominated assets and start to buy euros instead they just shift those trade distorting policies from the US dollar to the eurozone thereby hurting European manufacturers and exporters.

I hope I am making myself clear? You close trade and current account deficits as well as equalize your balance of payments between nations by reducing budget deficits and paying off debt as well as allowing your under-priced currency to appreciate against your competitor's thereby making imports less expensive while your exports lose their competitiveness.

You do not close those global imbalances by changing the transaction currency for trade in good and services. Not for oil and not for any other export whether it is priced in dollars, dinars or donuts. Doh!
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby Kingcoal » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 09:15:14

I've studied this issue for a couple of years now and have come to the conclusion that the "artificial" demand for dollars extends far beyond oil. It's really all about keeping the world economy going. China and other exporters depend on a healthy world economy to sell their products. The USA is the number one customer for many exporters. In order to sell to the US, you have to accept being paid in dollars. The US has created a system whereby exporters can create wealth with those dollars. The US, through its actions, has created a system that keeps prices in check and spurs economic and technological development. A fiat currency is only worth something when it's moving. A stationary note quickly loses value. That movement of currency, goods and services is what the economy really is. The idea is to "develop." Former peasants are turned into factory workers who produce products that are in demand while gaining experience and skills. Cheap, commoditized “raw materials” fuels the higher level businesses and leads to technological development. The US is committed on just about every front to making sure that this process continues. Protectionism and isolationism is the enemy of this system. In order for the system to work, the US must allow production to go where the greatest value is generated. That means that high paid, union protected jobs must be sacrificed in the name of the global economy. The US must enforce rules of fair commerce to provide a level of comfort for investors. The US offers huge financial markets which are secure, where fraud and abuse are policed. Competing markets, based on other currencies have to be able to offer the same kind of open, free, but regulated competition. So far, the money brokers of the world see the USD markets as serving them well. That may change for several reasons. If the US becomes protectionist and isolationist, it will find itself having to support its own currency by backing it with another currency or precious metals. It's all social engineering, the system we have strongly encourages investment, risk-taking and development. I think the reason why we hash this issue to death on this site is that many here hold mercantilist ideals. Some see a subsistence economy as perfection.

Oil does play a huge role in backing the dollar. The US must constantly take steps to mediate commodity prices, keeping them low, which serves the interests of not just the US, but of every other commodity consuming country. The main tool in keeping commodities in check is currency depreciation also known as inflation. It’s not all peach’s and cream, however. The US is finding it difficult to keep oil in check and will find it more and more difficult to do so in the future. The US must continue to take steps to keep oil producers independent and disorganized. OPEC must remain diluted. If OPEC were to become completely anti-US and truly united under that ideal, we’d have $200/bl oil and a stifled world economy. The writing is on the wall, however, conventional oil reserves are declining. Ether the world develops technology to augment and eventually replace the value created by those declining hydrocarbons, or we will have to learn to live with less, much less of a standard of living.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby CrudeAwakening » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 16:59:55

OK, here's a question for the petrodollar sceptics:

If it really doesn't matter which currency oil is traded in, why was one of the first actions following the invasion of Iraq to switch oil from a euro basis back to a dollar basis?

Please explain why, if there is no geostrategic value to the US in having oil traded in dollars, they went to the effort of bothering to do this.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby cube » Tue 31 Jul 2007, 18:35:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', '.')..
If it really doesn't matter which currency oil is traded in, why was one of the first actions following the invasion of Iraq to switch oil from a euro basis back to a dollar basis?
...
Considering the direction that the dollar is heading relative to the Euro......Americans should of kept Iraq on the Euro standard.

If the petrodollar theory is suppose to support the price of US dollars...it sure isn't doing a good job! :lol:
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby MrBill » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 04:59:32

KingCoal wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')il does play a huge role in backing the dollar. The US must constantly take steps to mediate commodity prices, keeping them low, which serves the interests of not just the US, but of every other commodity consuming country. The main tool in keeping commodities in check is currency depreciation also known as inflation. It’s not all peach’s and cream, however. The US is finding it difficult to keep oil in check and will find it more and more difficult to do so in the future. The US must continue to take steps to keep oil producers independent and disorganized. OPEC must remain diluted. If OPEC were to become completely anti-US and truly united under that ideal, we’d have $200/bl oil and a stifled world economy. The writing is on the wall, however, conventional oil reserves are declining. Ether the world develops technology to augment and eventually replace the value created by those declining hydrocarbons, or we will have to learn to live with less, much less of a standard of living.


I think you have this backwards.

A stable currency makes commodities cheaper not more expensive. A weakening currency adds to inflation which makes commodities more expensive in that currency. It makes them cheaper in foreign currencies that are not depreciating. As it makes them cheaper in other currencies it stimuates additional demand. Additional demand drives up the price in real terms, but especially in the devalued currency.

OPEC is a legal cartel. One of the only in the world. They may have been disorganized in the past, but I would say much less so today.

As oil is a fungible commodity it can be bought and sold freely anywhere in the world almost. Therefore, whether or not OPEC is or is not friendly to the USA is a mute point. Either you have money to pay for oil or not.

If they raise the price they are willing to sell oil for to $200, and that is their right as a cartel, then everyone will be paying $200 for oil whether they convert euros, yen or yuan or not. As most of those currencies are freely convertible then this will simply show up as smaller trade surpluses or larger deficits as oil is a cost of production. The difference being reflected in these countries balance of payments because higher commodity prices are simply a wealth transfer from consumers to producers.

If $200 oil is demand driven then by definition there is enough 'other' economic output to pay for it, so it is not likely to stifle the world economy.

If on the other hand, we have another OPEC supply shock like in the 1970s, and the real equilibrium price for crude is $100 to bring world supply in line with global demand, then $200 oil would have a devastating effect on the world economy.

Which would result in less wealth being transfered from consumers to producers that would hurt OPEC producers as their exports plummeted. The cartel would therefore be hurting themselves. Not to mention it may be very difficult for them to control their members cheating on their own quotas if the price was artificially high.

CrudeAwakening wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')OK, here's a question for the petrodollar sceptics:

If it really doesn't matter which currency oil is traded in, why was one of the first actions following the invasion of Iraq to switch oil from a euro basis back to a dollar basis?

Please explain why, if there is no geostrategic value to the US in having oil traded in dollars, they went to the effort of bothering to do this.


First of all, we are not 'petrodollar sceptics' per se. Petrodollars by definition is the observable phenomenon of oil producers selling oil in US dollars, which they do. And secondly, less obviously, or rationally if you will, re-investing those US dollars into USD-denominated assets.

Now Syria, Iran and others would prefer not to sell oil in USD, and apparently do not want (or cannot) to re-invest those export receipts into USD-denominated assets either. Iran wants euros or yen. Syria wants euros.

Why would the USA want Iraq to price its oil exports in USD? Quite simple because, one, eventually all USD payments funnel through a US bank that is supervised by the Fed, and indirectly by the US government. So this not only generates income for US banks, but also gives the US oversight over Iraq's oil sales.

And secondly, as Iraq does not have many, or any, sound financial institutions itself the chances are pretty good that Iraq will park some of its export earnings in USD-denominated assets, which we have already said, does create additional demand for USD.

Thirdly, the USA, as far as I understand, is using some of those funds from oil exports to pay for ongoing military involvement in Iraq like policing and re-building infrastructure. American contractors supposedly would like to be paid in USD.

But I assume that after America withdraws from Iraq, whatever government is left to run the country, can either continue to sell oil in USD or not? And even if they sell oil in USD, then they will have the choice to re-invest their profits in euros, yen or Sterling if they so choose.

It would be best if they used their exports to re-build their own economy and strengthen their own capital markets instead of investing in foreign assets.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby manu » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 09:42:51

Since the US$ is not backed by gold, it matters alot. It gives the worthless paper money some clout. You need to get $$ somehow to buy oil. First it was Iraq, but now Iran, Venz., and now Russia (who wants rubles for their oil) have already started to change and the $ has been dropping. If Saudi started to take anything but $ the U.S. would throw out the King in a day. Trade your worthless paper in for metal before you cant.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby MrBill » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 10:27:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', 'S')ince the US$ is not backed by gold, it matters alot. It gives the worthless paper money some clout. You need to get $$ somehow to buy oil. First it was Iraq, but now Iran, Venz., and now Russia (who wants rubles for their oil) have already started to change and the $ has been dropping. If Saudi started to take anything but $ the U.S. would throw out the King in a day. Trade your worthless paper in for metal before you cant.


If the US dollar is a worthless piece of paper as you suggest then how can the OPEC producers afford to buy some many foreign assets with them?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he cash they are using mostly comes from sovereign-wealth funds, a catch-all term that describes investment pools into which governments channel money, usually earnings from oil exports or foreign-exchange reserves built up to keep their currencies cheap. These funds are already huge—worth between $1.5 trillion and $2.5 trillion, according to estimates by America's Treasury—and will swell further as governments switch a bigger share of their reserves from low-yielding assets like Treasury bonds to more adventurous investments. Morgan Stanley predicts that by 2015 sovereign-wealth funds could be managing $12 trillion.


Source: Sovereign-wealth funds

Indeed, if you can trade your worthless US dollars for a house in a good neighborhood, a college education or a trip around the world are they in fact worthless?

And does gold have intrinsic value if that value fluctuates not just against the US dollar, but against other fiat currencies as well as other assets? What is the value of gold in absolute terms?

Would oil priced in euros be cheaper or more expensive than crude priced in US dollars? And if it was measured gold?

Are you a gold miner? How would you pay for your oil? If worthless US dollars are backed by the weight of all claims against the USA then by default I suppose you have to accept than any labor other than that directly tied to the production of energy, and gold of course, is worthless as well.

I suppose that would make the USA's agricultural output and copper mines worthless as well. Microsoft and Silicon Valley would be worthless, too.

So what you are saying is that the US economy is obviously creating zero wealth because it is not measured in gold. And by default that any country that uses a fiat currency is also creating zero wealth. Including oil producers naturally.

Good luck defending that position! ; - )

UPDATE:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ost of the other funds get their money from oil exports. Such funds have been around for some time—Abu Dhabi, for example, started a fund in 1976—but have been multiplying recently. Russia intends to channel some of the money from its Oil Stabilisation Fund, which invests in safe, liquid assets, into a more adventurous sovereign-wealth fund. Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nigeria and Angola have all either set up funds recently or are looking at doing so.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby cube » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 17:32:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', 'S')ince the US$ is not backed by gold, it matters alot. It gives the worthless paper money some clout. You need to get $$ somehow to buy oil.
I think somebody has been reading too many conspiracy websites. :P

Anyways I think there is only 1 true way for the common man to defend himself against financial shenanigans. Educate yourself and find the truth so you can take the necessary steps to protect your money when (not if) TPTB (the powers that be) try to do some funny money business. You can afford to be ignorant of sports and celebrity gossip but doing so with economics can be very costly. Ask for a 2nd opinion....even this one.

I actually like the gold standard but......Not even the gold standard can defend the masses if they are ignorant. Only by educating oneself and taking vigilant action can a person avoid the fate that befalls on 90% of the population.

good luck......you'll need it! ^_^
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby IrrationalExuberanceMonky » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 19:56:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'I')'ve studied this issue for a couple of years now and have come to the conclusion that the "artificial" demand for dollars extends far beyond oil. It's really all about keeping the world economy going.


For China, Japan etc very true. Sterilizing trade surplus capital is probably the first thing they teach newbies at those Central Banks.
One thing that you miss is the truism in financial markets of "perception is reality". Untill now it hasn't mattered how bad the US's current account has been, how much dollar bears growl or how low the USD falls; perception is that US treasurys are the ultimate "risk free" bond.

Now "this time it could be different", sure, never rule out the fat tail, but that quote is a signal for smart money to run for the hills.

For evidence of the attractiveness of US treasurys you only need look at the past week or so sell off in fixed income, stocks an in the FX markets where for example the big pimp of the carry trade NZD/JPY got a ~9% licking. In the mean time what did treasurys do?
RALLY! :P

The Dollar bears will have their day sooner or later, but it'll be later IMO, after 36 years though I'm sure they've learnt a little patience.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby IrrationalExuberanceMonky » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 20:02:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', 'O')K, here's a question for the petrodollar sceptics:

If it really doesn't matter which currency oil is traded in, why was one of the first actions following the invasion of Iraq to switch oil from a euro basis back to a dollar basis?

Please explain why, if there is no geostrategic value to the US in having oil traded in dollars, they went to the effort of bothering to do this.


Because there is no need to trade in other currencys as the US is not going to freeze the funds of Iraq when Soddom Insane is in a coffin.
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Re: What does it matter if oil is traded in US$ or other?

Unread postby manu » Thu 02 Aug 2007, 05:52:09

manu wrote: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O').K. your right, I worded it wrong. The paper is backed by an army that people have faith in. If countries stop taking $ for their oil, the $ will go way down. If some people still have faith that it is backed at least by their own oil reserves, and other resources, it will hold some value. I also admit that if people didnt want to take gold for their hard labour, it's value also would come down. But gold has had value for thousands of years, the U.S.$ only a couple of hundred. Look at Zimbabwe, they have printed 100,000 notes, in a failed economy. Do you think many people value these? Paper currency just means an easier way to cheat. It is also better for big buisness. The U.S. (people in general) have been spending way more than they are producing, so they have a big debt. If they are called on that debt do you think just printing more paper currency will solve that problem?


edited for clarity. thanks.
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