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Convergance and impact of issues

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Thu 14 Jun 2007, 03:51:31

Hello everyone.

I am new. I have been watching this forum for a while. Some great posts and useful info to be sure.

I think that in the next 1-5 years will see the convergence of several huge issues.
1 Peak Oil
2 Climate Change
3 Flu Pandemic

All of these issues on their own will have a huge impact. All togther, more so. What is interesting is the possible solutions all overlap.

Interesting times ahead
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby Judgie » Thu 14 Jun 2007, 06:34:08

Welcome aboard :-D !!! As a minor niggle, [smilie=profe.gif] please use the search function to check for:
(a) That your topic hasn't been posted before.

and

(b) That there are no closely related posts that discuss much the same thing.
Other than that, I agree completely with what you're saying as do most here.

Now. Which pill will you swallow?

Take the blue pill, and you get to stay in :lol: [smilie=5flowerface.gif] [smilie=love4.gif] techno-cornucopia land [smilie=love4.gif] [smilie=5flowerface.gif] :lol: , believing that deserts of solar panels [smilie=dark1.gif], the markets [smilie=3some.gif], and exponentialism [smilie=iamwithstupid.gif] will save us.

Take the red DOOOOOOOOOMERRRR!!! [smilie=laughing9.gif] pill [smilie=glasses7.gif] , and you'll get to realise just how far down the crapper [smilie=besos.gif] [smilie=new_birthday.gif] [smilie=new_snipersmilie.gif] [smilie=new_cussing.gif] [smilie=mumum.gif] [smilie=boxing.gif] [smilie=eusa_boohoo.gif] [smilie=love4.gif] [smilie=love6.gif] [smilie=love3.gif] [smilie=new_2gunsfiring_v1.gif] [smilie=new_shocked.gif] [smilie=qleft3.gif] [smilie=qleft4.gif] [smilie=qleft5.gif] [smilie=qright2.gif] [smilie=qright7.gif] [smilie=qright5.gif] [smilie=toothy4.gif] [smilie=XXbazooka.gif] [smilie=XXbuzzsaw.gif] [smilie=protest.gif] [smilie=new_bluegrab.gif] [smilie=new_cussing.gif] [smilie=llorar.gif] [smilie=qtank.gif] humanity can ignorantly shove itself.

[smilie=director.gif] Now choose!

Hope i didn't scare you off with all that :)
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby setag » Thu 14 Jun 2007, 10:29:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', 'H')ello everyone. I am new. I have been watching this forum for a while. Some great posts and useful info to be sure.
I think that in the next 1-5 years will see the convergence of several huge issues.
1 Peak Oil
2 Climate Change
3 Flu Pandemic
All of these issues on their own will have a huge impact. All togther, more so. What is interesting is the possible solutions all overlap. Interesting times ahead

I am interested in hearing more about the overlap solutions.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby Judgie » Thu 14 Jun 2007, 10:37:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('setag', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', 'H')ello everyone. I am new. I have been watching this forum for a while. Some great posts and useful info to be sure.
I think that in the next 1-5 years will see the convergence of several huge issues.
1 Peak Oil
2 Climate Change
3 Flu Pandemic
All of these issues on their own will have a huge impact. All togther, more so. What is interesting is the possible solutions all overlap. Interesting times ahead
I am interested in hearing more about the overlap solutions.

Actually, I agree with that. Please, do tell :)
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 02:53:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s a minor niggle, please use the search function to check for (a) That your topic hasn't been posted before. and (b) That there are no closely related posts that discuss much the same thing.

Sorry about that. I am still learning to drive this forum. :oops:
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby Judgie » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 05:26:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s a minor niggle, please use the search function to check for (a) That your topic hasn't been posted before.and (b) That there are no closely related posts that discuss much the same thing.
Sorry about that. I am still learning to drive this forum. :oops:

/exagerated hollywood Australian Accent ON

It's all good, ya bluddy bananna bender :)

Yeh, she's as controllable as a crow eater in a pub with no beer. When ya' get a chance, we'll have a bit of a yabber regarding your opinions about the three issues converging in a corroberie. Just give us a cooee.

And watch out for the drongo's, they're meaner than cat's p**s around here.

/exagerated hollywood Australian Accent OFF
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 05:36:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am interested in hearing more about the overlap solutions

We are on the cusp of a huge change in how we do things. At the moment, we daily consume products from a wide network. Things are made in remote locations and are then transported very cheaply long distances. We depend on a network of people and services that spans the globe. The very idea that things can be produced locally is seen as a little bizarre. The things we buy or consume are often based on whim, not what we actually need. This is the era of the corporation (where corporations call the shots, taking the place of elected governments), where we are en masse manipulated into giving lots of money to people we don’t personally know for crap we don’t really need to impress people we don’t really like. In a nutshell, the following DVD’s are excellent in describing how and why this happens:
“The Corporation”
Discusses how the current financial and administrative circumstances arose and bit on to what end we are manipulated into consumerism.

Status Anxiety”
Discusses why we feel the need to consume in the search for that elusive happiness. Why is it that we are so susceptible to manipulation?

“Outfoxed” and “Weapons of Mass Deception”
Discusses how we are manipulated into making the decisions that we do.

The system that is in place now is based on the illusion of responsible and ethical actions of institutions of authority. The idea that our respective governments and their subsidiaries like the military, act in our best interests, as opposed to big business is how and why we re-elect them. The whole thing has been geared so the big end of town can make as much money as possible. Political countries have been and will continue to interact at the diplomatic/military level, not only out of survival based self interest, but on behalf of large companies, which are global and know no political boundaries. The whole system is based on really tight margins, where a relatively small change has huge consequences (say a factory can’t meet its KPI’s because their raw materials arrived a day late, which then can’t make its contract, etc..).

All of this is going to come apart. We can argue over the details of what form this will take and in what time frame. Nevertheless, our current system of finance, manufacturing of goods and delivery of services is going to radically change. The delicate house of cards we place literally everything on can be brought down by any number of crises.

As fate would have it we have 3 huge issues on the horizon and are closing fast. They are converging in a way that they will arrive in the same 2-5 year window. They are:
    Peak Oil

    Climate Change

    Bird Flu Pandemic

Useful (but draconian) response solutions to deal with these issues dynamically interact and overlap. They do this economically and socially. All responses are based on things happening beyond our current control.

Peak Oil As is documented very well on this site, our ability to live off oil/fossil fuels is about to change. Anything that requires oil for its manufacture or transport is about to become uneconomic to sell let alone buy.

We will be forced into scaling back our demand to stuff we absolutely need, with the full knowledge that majority of people are not going to get close to that (with all the knock on consequences). At the moment, the trend is to scale up operations and use economies of scale and sheer brute force to do business from few locations, that out source to a wide area (I work in mining and see how heavy industry works now and how it would like to work tomorrow). This will be forced to change.

We will start manufacturing things on a small local scale, where transport is minimal. Or we will go without. Its as simple as that. Our quality of life will not include such extraordinary waste. Each action we take will be examined carefully to ensure its efficiency. Every person will be required to step up and be responsible for more of what they individually need. We will help grow our own food, collect our own water, make our own furniture and repair our own clothes.

Oil will simply not be available. This will affect everything that needs it.

An interesting possible solution to help us over this time is actually coal. We have lots of coal left. Not enough as a real solution, it will also peak like oil a few years later. What it can do is buy us time. A coal fired power station is dirty and smelly. Environmentalists don’t like them due to pollution issues (fair comment). It does mean we can continue to generate electricity to keep us going in the short term. We could then in a war footing build and deploy infrastructure to bypass the oil issue. Start putting into place some of these alternative fuel ideas (there are tech problems, but at the moment we are not looking at them very seriously). A public run network of transport for people and freight. This will take lots of money and resources to do and time. It will require time where we still have access to power generation. Once we have made a bit of progress on the transport network, we can then return to replacing the power stations themselves. This scenario will require a) foresight and leadership on the part of our respective governments and b) a slow grind down off the peak. If we get a sudden thud, then this was a nice idea but won’t fly. This scenario is asking a lot I know.

Financially things will change. The cost of doing business across the board will hit an economic discontinuity. Massive change in a short time frame. Things will be taken past their breaking point. Big business will no longer function in the way they do now. Products they make money off will now become far too expensive to sell. Their reason to be starts to break down. Large companies and banks will start to turn on each other in much the same fashion they did during the great depression. We will no longer be dependant on other ‘distant’ groups. We will be forced to start doing things our selves and trade with people close by. The law will become less relevant. No one will care a hoot about wether big business will survive or not.

Socially things will also change. At the moment we function on the family unit, which can be broken down easily to the individual. Most people don’t know their neighbours. When the all of this hits, we will be forced into groups of families banding together to survive. A suburban street might get together and everyone works on something. Kind of like a village construct. A family trying to do it on their own are going to do it a lot tougher. That group of families will become very tight knit. Things that happen in the next state or in our countries all of a sudden become irrelevant. The government will be forced to step in and take charge regarding how these suburban villages/towns/cities interact or become irrelevant.

Pretending its not our problem and someone else will fix it is not good enough. Hoping it will all go away is also not good enough. Life will be defined more by what is needed rather than what it will cost. The time frame for this is hotly debated but consensus is it will become a noticeable issue in a results on the ground way in the next 0-5 years.


Climate Change In Australia, we are just starting to feel the consequences of climate change. Volatile extreme weather and the resulting consequences of trying to get stuff done is now being seen in real time. Again we can argue the point but its now being felt.

Drinking water supplies are now no longer adequate. We have similar amounts of rain, but it doesn’t fall in dam catchments any more. Also, we have larger storms where more water hits the ground in short bursts, which cause flooding and general infrastructure damage (I am a volunteer at the local emergency response group). This has seriously affected our agriculture and ability to grow our own food. This is also only a warm up.

The response to this will be:

Phase out oil and coal and gas out of wide spread use (say restrict it to making plastics only). This will in turn directly affect agriculture (which is oil dependant), power generation (for us Aussies coal fired power stations), mining and manufacturing. Develop agriculture that doesn’t need as much oil or water. Find an alternative practical power solution for electricity generation. Find an alternative to transport goods (Australia runs on trucks) between major cities.

Food and goods manufacture will now have to be done locally on a smaller scale by more people. Because climate change is bringing lots of storms that wreak havoc in our facilities grid (power, sewerage, water, etc), we will have to have a system that is less vulnerable. Lots of built in redundancies. Perhaps each suburb will become more self sufficient and do all of this stuff, only to be supplemented over the grid.

All this is going to cost though and we won’t do it willingly. Peak oil may just force us to do these things a lot quicker.

Financially supply of goods and services will become unreliable. Power outages and breakdowns will be common place. The cost of putting in alternative infrastructure will be colossal. The government will be forced to step in and take charge or become irrelevant.

Socially we all must assist in a complete overhaul in our infrastructure. Pretending its not our problem and someone else will fix it is not good enough. Hoping it will all go away is also not good enough.

Again, life will be defined more by what is needed rather than what it will cost. Again, the time frame for this is being hotly debated along with the concept itself. That being said, we are seeing the first set of consequences now. The really big ones are 2-5 years away.

Bird Flu Pandemic I am a member of the local emergency services volunteer group (every town is Australia has an SES unit). One of the things we have been briefed on is the Australian Federal response to a possible outbreak of bird flu. Part of this briefing was an emergency services personnel education what we learned from the 2004 boxing day Tsunami in Indonesia and Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Many things seen were not released to the public. It was a real eye opener in regard to what people do when they are put in a life threatening situation. I saw many things discussed on this forum actually being reported as happening (as opposed to possible scenarios and debate there in). Most of it was what was the response after the event. How do we clean up the mess left behind? How do we help the local community get back on its feet? This really scared the crap out of me. Especially the part of our limitations to what can be done with the facilities we have right now. How quickly things break down into an improvised triage system.

According to microbiologists, a lethal pandemic is inevitable. It’s not a case of if but when and where first. Bird flu was flagged as a possible candidate, based on what it might mutate into. At the moment its small scale stuff. 292 cases of sickness have been reported, resulting in 172 deaths. Symptoms are low level flu and cold like for a couple of days. After 5-6 days the victim feels they should be in a hospital. Day 7-8 they are dead. That is, it is contagious and hard to diagnose for 5-6 days, then it ramps up real quick. Stats at the moment suggest that of all those who get sick, 70% will die. They are quoting its probable that as much as 35-40% of our population will be casualties.

This bug is really tough and takes a lot to kill off. Our immune system is not really kitted out to fight it at this time. At the moment it is mostly contained in SE Asia is related to poultry interacting with wild birds. It has however jumped species to cats.

What they are worried about is this thing breaking out of the containment areas. Consensus is that we are 5 and half years over due for a breakout. Conditions are right this winter (summer for northern hemisphere) for a breakout. If we don’t get one this season, then next year is even more probable. Consensus is within 3 years it will breakout of SE Asia. When this happens it could spread very quickly all around the world.

The only thing comparable in living memory is the 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic. A study of the mechanism and social response of the generations of Europeans dealing with the Black Plague seems to be appropriate.

Our response is simple. When the flu is diagnosed, the whole area is then quarantined. Areas of Australia will be then quarantined separately. Essential services like communications will be placed in isolation lockdown separate from the rest of the populations. Our objective is to slow the spread of the flu for a few days. This will give the people developing the vaccine precious time. If a vaccine can be found (its unknown if the ones we have now will have any effect), it can be mass produced (a relative term to be sure). Essential services the hold us together with get the vaccine first. After that, it will be a triage based priority in distribution.

Financially business will essentially stop. It is believed something like 50% of emergency staff will not report to work once an outbreak happens. This will cause chaos and hamstring our possible response. Most people will quarantine themselves for a while. This means that that vast network we all depend on to live will suspend itself for a time. Getting hold of goods and services is going to be a dangerous joke until the all clear is sounded.

Socially we will simply stop and hide (after a bit of panic). “When in doubt, run about, wave your arms and scream and shout” will be the general procedure.

The similarities to Peak Oil and Climate Change are as follows:

• The vast network of people and services will break down.

• Goods and services will not be so reliable or affordable.

• Built in redundancy of support systems and services will be needed.

• We will interact very differently on a social level.

• The impact on our society will be colossal.

The possible response to Bird Flu dovetails nicely with what is required for Peak Oil and Climate Change issues. Whether we have the fore sight or time to actually do all this remains to be seen.

Summary
None of this is going to be voluntary or pleasant. We have had 60 years of relative stability. We as a whole are much wealthier than previous generations. Ask the opinion of anyone who survived WWII (especially someone who lived in Europe at the time). They often respond to me in terms of “you are all soft in the head and do not appreciate or understand the life you now have”. Our unhealthy love affair with our need to spend vast amounts of money on crap is about to be beaten out of us. We are about to be given a harsh lesson on what really matters.

Us humans have been through this sort of thing before. I can recommend the following books if anyone is interested:

“Collapse, how civilisations choose to survive or fail” Jared Diamond, 2005

“The Collapse of Ancient States and Civilisations” Norman Yoffee & George Cowgill 1998

“The Collapse of Complex Societies” Joseph Tainter, 1988

The long and short of it is this. The times coming are going to be harder than anything in living memory. Some very bad times are going to go down. That being said, there will come a point when things stabilise. Then who ever is left picks up the pieces and it all starts once more. The question will be, will those who are left learn anything? Will they act accordingly? I believe we have it in us to get past this as a civilisation but we must evolve or be left behind.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby Judgie » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 06:22:37

You Sir, have your head screwed on correctly. Many here debate one viewpoint or another, but rarely do they bother to bring all of the issues that we will be facing together, to see how they compare, what cancel's what out, etc.

Basically, what you're saying is this:
The human race as a whole, will be facing a relatively unprecendented period in it's history. It is very likely that we will need a collective "kick in the arse" to get started. Even IF we get started in time, many will not survive. Collapse of life, industry and the economy as we know it is all but certain. There is no one solution. If we successfully adapt or "evolve" as you put it, the future human race will be something altogether different, perhaps we will reach another level of cultural, social and technological enlightenment. We have it in us to get around the three sisters of doom for sure (but only if 90% of the Western World pulls their heads out of the sand).
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 10:32:29

Thankyou Judgie

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

If you take a broader view of history you see some interesting things. Societies and cultures were going through trouble and strife all of the time. The mechanims that held them together were often threatened and sometimes broken. Cultures that chose to transcend the problems facing them came out stronger and wiser. They were also different. Those cultures that chose to ignore the warning signs died out. The cultures that evolved did so based on a combination of inner reserves, a paradigm shift in the way they did things, and the occasional lucky break. Those cultures that died out stubbornly held on to certain beliefs that were no longer relavant to their true circumstances at the expense of their own survival. In each of these cases they either chose to see things and had the strength to sort it out, or chose not to see their salvation.

The circumstance we now face is scary because our society is a huge network that is interdependant across the whole planet. When it fails or stalls, we all hit that brick wall at the same time.

We have to look at things as they genuinely are, warts and all. We have to see ourselves, strengths and weaknesses. We then have to make some really hard decisions.

Alternatively those hard decsions will be made for us by that beast called reality
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby bshirt » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 11:24:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', ' ')This is the era of the corporation (where corporations call the shots, taking the place of elected governments), where we are en masse manipulated into giving lots of money to people we don’t personally know for crap we don’t really need to impress people we don’t really like.

lol!! Well said, DrBang!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he system that is in place now is based on the illusion of responsible and ethical actions of institutions of authority.

On the money! Indeed, institutes of endless bureaucracy are everywhere.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he idea that our respective governments and their subsidiaries like the military, act in our best interests, as opposed to big business is how and why we re-elect them.

I think currently to a great degree it's the folks slobbering at the public trough who are voting.

Unless you're a govn employee and/or an intitlement recepient, why would you vote? The man who stands by himself has no one who will represent him. Only those who will steal the sweat off his back.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ll of this is going to come apart.

Sounds good to me.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e can argue over the details of what form this will take and in what time frame. Nevertheless, our current system of finance, manufacturing of goods and delivery of services is going to radically change. The delicate house of cards we place literally everything on can be brought down by any number of crises.
Yep. That's how I see it too. One strong breeze from any direction and the house of cards tumbles down.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e will start manufacturing things on a small local scale, where transport is minimal. Or we will go without. Its as simple as that.
I agree! It's truly amazing that right here at PO.com, so many think the govn will take care of them.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Our quality of life will not include such extraordinary waste. Each action we take will be examined carefully to ensure its efficiency. Every person will be required to step up and be responsible for more of what they individually need. We will help grow our own food, collect our own water, make our own furniture and repair our own clothes.
Oh, you mean no more 10,000 "something for nothing" social programs? Sob, cry, moan....:-(
I'll take that scenario over the putrid mess we currently have any day of the week.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he government will be forced to step in and take charge regarding how these suburban villages/towns/cities interact or become irrelevant.
Well, here I've got to disagree. The current mob rule govn will simply fade away. All the votes in the world for entitlements, cushy govn jobs, etc, won't make a twit of difference, imo.
The current nation state will have problems in River City. It's very doubtful they'll survive for long.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he time frame for this is hotly debated but consensus is it will become a noticeable issue in a results on the ground way in the next 0-5 years.
Sounds about right to me. Anytime now....
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ood and goods manufacture will now have to be done locally on a smaller scale by more people.
I too think "local" will rule completely soon.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ecause climate change is bringing lots of storms that wreak havoc in our facilities grid (power, sewerage, water, etc), we will have to have a system that is less vulnerable. Lots of built in redundancies. Perhaps each suburb will become more self sufficient and do all of this stuff, only to be supplemented over the grid.
Maybe so. I'm inclined to think centralized power stations won't last long. Who's going to pay them?

Good reading, DrBang. Thank you!
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby setag » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 13:18:19

Excellent post, DrBang. Thank you and I look forward to learning more from the references you mentioned.

You are more optimistic than I find myself at the present. I do hope
the solutions are within our grasp.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', '"')Useful (but draconian) response solutions to deal with these issues dynamically interact and overlap."

Yes, but the solutions will come as reactionary solutions and not preventive solutions, so I don't foresee any stabilization regardless of how better off we are regarding education, technology, or economics. In my humble opinion, unless we determine the path of our future, there may be no future.

I too am a member of the local emergency services volunteer group
here in the United States and I assure you we are not prepared.

Again, thank you and I hope you have the time to share some of your thoughts regarding my "reactionary solutions versus preventive solutions" theory.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby chumley » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 14:52:19

Seems to me like a "perfect storm" is brewing right now. Peak oil, global warming, massive population explosion over the last century, pandemic, global marketplace interdependance, high debt, resource wars(possibly now, surely in the future).... Sure does seem like a house of cards to me. So many variables out there could tip the scales most unfavorably. Heck, just imagine the cosequences if one of those radical islamic groups decided to blow up a few oil pipelines. This could cause severe economic consequences. Considering how interlaced the global economy is now, one country falling into recession will bring down lots more.

I do not know which crisis will prevail, but they are all inexorably connected. I fear that when one goes the others will follow. I sure liked it alot better when I was completely ignorant of peak oil.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby katkinkate » Fri 15 Jun 2007, 22:02:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chumley', '.')..... I sure liked it alot better when I was completely ignorant of peak oil.

Yes, ignorance is bliss... at least for a little while.
Kind regards, Katkinkate

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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Sat 16 Jun 2007, 03:03:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nless you're a govn employee and/or an intitlement recepient, why would you vote?

In Australia, its law that every adult has to vote. A friend of mine got fined $250 for not voting on his wedding day!!!! By law we have to have an opinion and say so at some point.

These issues in Australia will have a different response to other countires. For a start we don't need to heat our houses to survive. Our power generation grid is coal fired and surrounded by coal mines.

To grow agriculture though can be intersting. Most places have top soil depth measured in inches with the on going drought conditions (worse now than we have seen but normally something like 67% of our continent is consdiered arid).

Our neighbours in New Zealand seem to be doing a sterling job of managing all of this. Their Prime Minister actually had a go our our Prime Minister for sitting on his arse and ignoring these issues. It was good to see.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Sat 16 Jun 2007, 03:20:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Useful (but draconian) response solutions to deal with these issues dynamically interact and overlap."

Yes, but the solutions will come as reactionary solutions and not preventive solutions, so I don't foresee any stabilization regardless of how better off we are regarding education, technology, or economics. In my humble opinion, unless we determine the path of our future, there may be no future.


A valid point. I agree that our current administration won't be much help. Recently the Brisbane City Council released a report on a possible response to both climate change and peak oil (one document). Most of it was fluff but it did show they were not completely ignorant. Any serious discussion with officals results in that glassy eyed stunned mullet look they give you when their brains shut down. Then they start to whine about what it will all cost.

I believe we will see a triage based admistration that will be reactionary. When everything goes to the crapper and basic services shut down, there may be an effort to to keep running essential services. For example water and sewrage.

This happen after some serious shit has hit the fan. So in essence I agree with you but can see a partial solution. People will be forced to become more self sufficent. In Australia, this bottle neck here may be food production.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 16 Jun 2007, 12:09:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', 'I') believe we will see a triage based admistration that will be reactionary. When everything goes to the crapper and basic services shut down, there may be an effort to to keep running essential services. For example water and sewrage.



I'm just not so convinced such triage will be attempted. I think it depends who is in power at the time. Certainly here in the US recent disaster has shown us the reaction has been to demonize certain groups of people, contain them, and then let them tough it out virtually on their own, with little support from administration. I can easily see administration dropping the problem like the stinking rotten hot potato it is, and leaving everyone on their own. But I'm feeling pretty negative about government these days.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Sat 16 Jun 2007, 22:09:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') too am a member of the local emergency [align=justify]services volunteer group
here in the United States and I assure you we are not prepared.


We are even less prepared. My point was an attempt to repsond has been started, along with training.

Opinion of the Australian Eastern Coast SES controller:
on a scale of 1-10 where 1 is we are completely stuffed and 10 is where we are ready to resp[align=justify]ond, Australia sits around 2. 5 years ago we used to be 1. The US in spite of Hurricane Katrina is considered to be around 4-5. The British are around 7-8 (up there with the best in the world).

Australia in the past has had a very slack response. "nothing ever happens here" While we don't have earthquakes or tornados, every couple of decades we get hit pretty bad. We have been looking at lifting our game by learning from how other countries do things. Some lessons are really hard won. The Tsunami that hit Indonesia on boxing day 2004 was a real eye opener.

One of the problems that US emergency services had during Hurricane Katrina was a top down structure and 11 levels of administration. The word had to be passed up the tree through 11 levels, then a decsion had to come form the top and percolate down those same 11 levels before anything could be done. Becuase we are so small in scale, we tend to be bottom up. Local groups can activate and request help up the tree.

We are now trialing a new system where all emergency services (Police, Ambulance, Fire dept, search and rescue, SES, etc) are under the same comand structure. Disasters that are now hiting are too bug for local groups to deal with on their own. To prevent them from being overwhelmed we now fly in volunteer groups from all over the country. The last two disaters we have done this with reasonable sucess. Cyclone Larry JTWC designation: 17P (cyclone is our term for hurricane) hit Queensland in 2005/6. Floods and storms hit Newcastle in NSW in the last week or so.

No we are not ready. It would be nice to be cloer to the mark though. Such training is invaluable for decision making in emergency circumstances.
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby setag » Tue 19 Jun 2007, 14:27:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DrBang', '
')
I believe we will see a triage based admistration that will be reactionary. When everything goes to the crapper and basic services shut down, there may be an effort to to keep running essential services. For example water and sewrage.

This happen after some serious shit has hit the fan. So in essence I agree with you but can see a partial solution. People will be forced to become more self sufficent. In Australia, this bottle neck here may be food production.


Sorry, for the delay in my response, but I lost your location. Which by the way, is my next point. While i can agree the requirement for self-sufficiency may kick in; the issues themselves will come as a surprise and unexpected occurrences will destabilize civilization to the point of no return. Oh, I do hope I am wrong. I have never wanted to be so wrong before in my life! Can we prevent this from happening? Yes, but we have to act now with preventive solutions, not later, and unless you can convince the United Nations or some Worldly Power to tackle the challenges {you have mentioned in your first post} right away then the solutions can not be achieved. Regardless of their overlapping or interacting, Sir. I fear the majority will not evolve.[u]

The solution is to identify the challenges, consider the solutions, develop a plan, and implement the plan. This all has to be done in a public way. Ideas need to be shared and communities need to address their own solutions in the same matter. These problems can no longer remain behind closed doors with populations of all countries depending on their governments to save them. This is prevention techniques and only then can we have hope to continue.

I do applaud the training and restructuring of your emergency services. We have implemented new radios which opens communications between the local emergency management team, police, firemen, patrolmen, and hazard team. This channel brings the local emergency people, state, and federal agency into more of a cohesive group. We will see!!
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Re: Convergance and impact of issues

Unread postby DrBang » Thu 21 Jun 2007, 00:13:47

Setag (cool pic on your siganture BTW)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he issues themselves will come as a surprise and unexpected occurrences will destabilize civilization to the point of no return.


Sadly I think you may have a point. Even if you are half right then things are going to get really shitty. I guess I think there will come a point where the second wave of human nature will kick in and we start to rebuild. The first wave is everything is gone to shit, lets try and take what we need from our neighbours. This is short term thinking. The people who think in such terms will be most pissed when it breaks down and fails to work.

Depending on how things go this may be easier than we may think.

I like to examine such ideas by looking at fiction stories. They provide a useful commetry and simulation in the realm of "what if". The book "The Postman" was cool in this regard. Civilisation had broken down beyond the point of no return. After a time, things stabilised and a new network started up. The trigger for this was a postal service, network of communication between several small towns/gatherings of people in wood forts. After communication came co operation. After co-operation they banded together to see off the brigand banit groups trying to take things from them.

Another example was "Lucifers Hammer", based around the aftermath of a comet impact. This also put forward such ideas. This time, the chaos was averted before it went past a certain point. They hit a point in the story where certain things were decided. If they jumped one way then it all came apart. If they jumped another things go better.

In both books, people banded togther into groups of a couple of hundred. They started to make things and do things themsleves. They also defended a static position sucessfully. Then they started to trade and support groups around them. A new system of civilisation started up that ahd simialrities of the old.


I believe we will go through some crap in the next 0-7 years. At what scale and how bad and for how long remains to be seen.
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