[stu]

Following the recent thread involving Griffins Pearl Harbour I only thought it was natural to debate some interesting points that have been raised by Philbiker regarding certain PO experts. Does anyone agree with PhilBiker that Heinberg and Ruppert are using PO in a way to push their beliefs in some kind of conspiracy. They seem to do a lot of consultation together (Ruppert praises Heinberg on book covers, They appear at conference together on End of Suburbia DVD). Personally I don't believe Heinberg is as extreme with his beliefs as Ruppert.

I've not got round to reading books by Colin Campbell or Kenneth Deffeyes yet but maybe their angle is strictly a geological one and there is no conspiracy angle.

What does everyone else think?

[stu]

Also it does raise the issue of serious acceptance of PO. Are people going to be totally put off PO theory?

Imagine the scenario. You tell your friend or family member about PO. They say "Woah! This is pretty big. I'd better prepare myself for this and start reading up on it".

At some point in their research they come across references that link PO with 9/11, The War on Terror and they say "What the hell is this wacko BS." They go to you and say "I knew this was just some crazy y2k style crap. F**k learning about this."

It does make you wonder as well whether there is a division between the experts. Do people like Campbell, Simmons and Deffeyes look at Heinberg and Ruppert and think to themselves "great! there goes the credibility". Maybe the opposite is true and there is a general consensus amongst them on this issue.

Either way I think it is quite possibly a divisive issue amongst PO-ers.

[stu]

Aftet thinking about this for a while I decided to contact Richard Heinberg with the following e-mail.

To Proffessor Heinberg

I have recently become aware of Peak Oil theory and count "Powerdown" and
"The Partys Over" as very informative literature on this subject.

The reason I write to you is because I am a regular poster on peakoil.com
and one subject that has arisen a few times (mainly of my doing) is that of
the link between Peak Oil and some form of conspiracy by the US government
or people who would be classed amongst the elite. I am aware from my
research that you do confer with the excellent investigative reporter
Michael Ruppert on issues regarding Peak Oil. My point is that I get the
impression from other posters that there is a certain amount of skepticism
from people when they hear Peak Oil experts move into the areas that would
be described by some as Conspiracy Theory.

I have just finished reading "The New Pearl Harbour" by David Ray Griffin
and I think it is a fabulous book that raises many questions that need
answering. I am aware that you thoroughly recommend this book to people and
it appears to me that it is this kind of situation that creates skepticism.
I think that people are afraid that Peak Oil will not be taken seriously if
authors on the subject refer to government cover ups and related material.
Perhaps they will feel that the general public will treat it like the y2k
phenomenon and that it is just fearmongering.

Personally I have been a conspiracy researcher for 7 years and have
knowledge of the New World Order conspiracy and other related matters so I
am not a total skeptic. However it would help to clarify certain issues if
you could answer a couple of brief questions by myself. I am aware that you
must be busy so I will try to not make the questions so open-ended.

1. Is there a division, or conversely, an agreement amongst experts in the
field of Peak Oil that there is some form of deliberate cover up by high
ranking figures involving 9/11, the war on terror and Peak Oil?

2.Should these kinds of issues be raised in a subject that is , on first
impressions, dealing with fields such as ecology, geology etc?

I look forward to recieving your response and congratulations on writing
well informed literature that is educating my family and friends as I write
this.


I then recieved back the following response.

Dear Stuart,
Sorry I can't answer at length. I have the flu and besides I have to spend
2-3 hours a day on e-mail.
Many people knowledgeable on peak oil would prefer not to have anything to
do with deep politics. Very understandable. However I've been pleased that
Colin Campbell, the most knowledgeable person on peak oil, is very open to
discussing US government complicity in 9/11. I usually do not bring the
subject up in my talks, as I want to focus on one subject rather than
bombard the audience with a litany of controversial material. However it is
clear to me that the US has been taken over by a gang of war criminals and
that America is no longer a democracy but a crypto-fascist dictatorship.
This is not a minor point. If true, it means the decade ahead will be very
nasty indeed. We will not deal with peak oil peaceably and cooperatively.
Cheers,
Richard.

The reason I decided to send this e-mail was because from the very beginning that I started to learn about PO it occurred to me that if PO was true then the most natural thing would be that that there would be at least some mention of it by the Government or the Media. After all lets face it. When the price of oil skyrockets and this starts to badly affect geopolitics and economics the theory of PO cannot fail to be ignored by either the press or the world leaders. Personally I believe the higher the price of oil then the more awareness there is of PO.

The fact that this sort of thing is not being covered by the mass media (yes there are mentions of it here and there but not enough to put it into the mainstream consciousness so as to make people genuinely aware of it's implications) does make me think. Oil is the blood and veins of our society. To not have any mention of PO by the the people we rely on for leadership and information is slightly baffling in my eyes.

As you may have noted from Proffessor Heinbergs response to my e-mail the leading expert on PO (and the man currently leading the "most credible expert" poll) Proffessor Colin Campbell is "very open to discussing government complicity in 9/11". So here you have the most well known and well respected PO expert not having any problem in discussing possible high-level involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Therefore we have to consider that virtually all the other PO experts think along the same lines.

The next thing I have to discuss is other posters reaction to the concept of cover-up or conspiracy issues relating to PO. I've noticed the total lack of response to this thread and I can only imagine a few possibilities regarding this.

1. People would rather not get involved with conspiracy talk because this just leads down paths that are not worth discussing and are just too bizarre.

2. You already know that the government and media are controlled by big business so this is nothing new to you.

3. You are too afraid to believe the possibility that the US government would be invovled in something that would involve major catastrophe- 9/11 or a denial of PO and it's implications.

The whole reason I touch upon PO links with conspiracies is not to try and push some belief in a far out theory but to try and raise awareness of the attitude of the people that we look to for leadership and information.

One key factor in this whole issue is what level of conspiracy you believe in. Is it just a cover up of the facts of PO? Does it go even higher and involve complicity in the 9/11 attacks in order to push a neoconservative agenda? Is there a plan for a one world government? What does PO have to do with all of this? Do you believe that there is no cover up involving PO? The answers or possible answers to these questions may never be known and you can only make your own judgements through the evidence that is presented to you. After learning that the mindset of PO experts appears to be that there is a government cover up going on at some level I am going to choose to believe that there is more to PO than meets the eye.

[Aaron]

Getting lonely in here stu?

Remember that just because you are paranoid, does not mean that someone isn't out to get you!

I find the conspiracy theory stuff to be pretty thin gruel myself.

People, (and in particular Americans), love bashing the top dogs. For god's sake, America was ready to impeach a President for getting an Oval Office Hummer!

Do we really think that there is some secret cabal working for a NWO? Or complicit in 911? Or whatever...

This would assume that:

1) These secret groups are clever enough not to be caught in the act.

2) No insiders are willing to exploit their knowledge of a conspiracy to gain an advantage.

Makes more sense to me that what we are seeing is a combination of ignorance & greed.

And even if we assume that there are active conspiracies ongoing, without some watershed event exposing these transgressions, do we really expect the general public to embrace this idea?

Without a smoking gun, associating PO theory with speculation on conspiracy theories waters down the message of depletion, and is almost a guarantee that John Q. Public will never understand & embrace PO.

I'm picturing a group of survivors, huddled around a trash fire, waiting for their share of roasted dog, fondly recalling the "good ole days". One of the group speaks up, and says, "It's a conspiracy! The Warlord and the ranchers are manipulating the dog supply!".

Perhaps they are... perhaps not.

The hubris implied by the conspiracy theories is gigantic. NWO? Please... I'm pretty sure the Earth could give a shit.

Iraq is a dangerous place? 911 was an epic disaster?

PPFFFTTTT!

We over-estimate our importance I think.

[stu]

Good Post Aaron.

Yeah it was getting a bit lonely in here.

But nevertheless.To respond to your post.

Yes NWO thoeory is far out and most likely BS.

Cover ups on another level? Maybe or maybe not.

Ignorance and greed? Most likely.

I don't have any direct experience with conpiracy culture in the States myself. Primarily because I have never been there, though it is apparently a major part of US culture. Like you said "people (especially Americans) love bashing the top dog".

On reflection I guess that maybe I am too much of an idealist. We seem to be headed for the most cataclysmic period in human history and yet I look around and cannot believe that we have been so ignorant and naive considering the achievements and further potential of the human race. Let us not forget also that greed and battle are as old as human civilisation itself.

Here's what I believe in terms of PO related cover ups.

NWO and PO- No way. does not make sense.

PO and 9/11- only if you want to believe that the neo-cons were behind it in order to push their agenda detailed on the PNAC website.

PO through ignorance and greed- Most likely. And that is from the sides of both the consumer and the businessman.