[eastbay]

Eastbay, you dismiss out of hand all evidence that has been provided to you and offer none of your own. You merely resort to broad generalizations and unsubstantiated attacks on the authenticity of information. The rules of debate require more than that. You are employing the very tactics that you attribute to the media and government.

Hi again, Geko45,

I don't believe we're required to offer any evidence. Those who claim 'something' happened should prove it with proper evidence. The pro-massacre believers have yet to prove a massacre happened in my opinion. Evidence we see offered is a few pictures out of tens of thousands taken. We read a variety of sensational and obviously inflammatory testimonials. We all know how unbelieveable they can be.

When some claim 'an event' happened they need to provide evidence. People should then be free to decide whether or not the evidence is sufficient to justify the allegation. If the allegation is pre-meditated mass-killing or an officially sanctioned massacre then the evidence should be overwhelming. In the case of the Tiananmen Square protest the evidence is completely missing. It's not our job to find the evidence. It's yours.

Respectfully, Eastbay (communist sympathizer)

[Geko45]

Yet another link with a couple of dozen images of the massacre. These include people hiding from troops with guns, dead bodies (including one crushed by a tank) and people showing spent shells after the massacre. The only thing that has not been captured is the actual discharge of weapons which is understandable given the circumstances.

Warning: graphic content

Frankly, I am done with this topic. I am nauseated by the scenes that I have uncovered of the brutality that happend that day. Eastbay would have us believe it didn't happen. I urge everyone to do their own research and decide for themselves.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')hose who claim 'something' happened should prove it with proper evidence.

[Geko45]

Found it. This is a picture of a weapon being discharged in Tiananmen Square by Chinese troops. The original photo is located in the link I provided above. I annotated this copy to point out the muzzle flash. I know Eastbay will still deny this, but this is in fact what the actual discharge of a military weapon looks like at night. I know from first hand experience being ex-military myself. Military weapons are equipped with suppressors that conceal the flash as much as possible (as to not reveal their position).

[eastbay]

I reviewed the pictures you linked. Bodies in a city morgue and a few people with bloody shirts is what one can see in any large city on earth just about any night of the week. There were no pictures of troops with guns ready or drawn. Some guy ran over by a tank reminds me that standing in front of a moving tank is a bad idea.

The bullets shown appear to be what is probably the most common round on earth, the 7.62 x .39. They're standard Chinese AK 47 rounds, but interestingly the bullets shown with them were obviously fresh and undamaged. They were unfired. So why would anyone show a handful of unfired rounds and call them bullets troops had fired? Most people wouldn't know the difference, that's why.

Beijing at that time was a city of around 10 million. The few pictures we've seen could be anything. They could have been pictures of a small portion of the day's traffic fatalities. They could be of people beaten after stoning soldiers or police. Stoning soldiers or police is a very bad idea. We simply do not know what caused the injuries or why they occurred.

The evidence is completely lacking. What we see are a very few pictures of bloody hair and shirts. We see a morgue image. This is what could be seen just about anywhere. It could be from factional fighting. It could be anything. In many large Asian cities serious traffic accidents involving bicycles and motorcycles are commonplace.

Again, we simply don't know what caused the injuries displayed, but until someone finds clear and convincing evidence, it's improper to claim a 'massacre' occurred. Accusing people of committing a 'massacre' is a very serious charge requiring absolute proof. A few bloody images and a collection of phantasmagoric tales are obviously insufficient.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')here were no pictures of troops with guns ready or drawn.

...

They're standard Chinese AK 47 rounds, but interestingly the bullets shown with them were obviously fresh and undamaged. They were unfired.

[eastbay]

I saw that picture too and dismissed it. That picture looks more like a guy lighting a match for a cigarette to me. I too have seen more than my share of weapons fired at night and that certainly doesnt look like a flash-suppressed AK 47 (or any 7.62 x .39) muzzle flash to me. They are very, very bright and especially bright if fired when aimed in your general direction!

It could be just about anything. The image is so fuzzy there are no weapons visible so there's no way to determine where they're pointed or even if they're carrying weapons. Calling that yellowish smudge evidence of soldiers firing on demonstrators is a serious stretch.

[eastbay]

The bullets in the left hand of the person nearest to the camera are new and unfired. True, not a lie.

Note: Using unkind terms like 'lies' means you are now getting angry. Anger is destructive and you should avoid it like a poison. That's how destructive behavior including war can begin. Disagreement does not have to generate anger. It can generate learning. I have learned from this exchange. You have shown images I've never seen. They, to me, do not offer proof of a 'massacre', but I was grateful to have seen them nevertheless. Thank you.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I') too have seen more than my share of weapons fired at night and that certainly doesnt look like a flash-suppressed AK 47 (or any 7.62 x .39) muzzle flash to me. They are very, very bright and especially bright if fired when aimed in your general direction!

[eastbay]

The soldiers in the other picture are carrying weapons. That's what soldiers do. The guy holding the camera that took the picture certainly wasn't 'hiding'. And the guys crouched near the car are doing a very poor job of 'hiding'.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he bullets in the left hand of the person nearest to the camera are new and unfired. True, not a lie.

[eastbay]

No, they aren't and the fact that you suggest they are tells me you've seen to many Hollywood movies. If they were that bright then flash suppressors would be a failed technology that would not be bothered with.

Yes they are. Go out some night and fire one. A standard-issue flash-suppressor on an AK 47 doesn't suppress very much flash. I thought everyone knew that?????

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'Y')es they are. Go out some night and fire one. A standard-issue flash-suppressor on an AK 47 doesn't suppress very much flash. I thought everyone knew that?????

[eastbay]

Look again at the one in the guys hand. Ooops, right hand. Unfired.

A dovetailed AK-47 bullet should have disintegrated after hitting anything solid. That collection of metal in the certainly don't look like fired 7.62 x .39 bullets to me. They look more like unfired hollow-point 9mm maybe, but definitely not fired AK rounds.

[eastbay]

Only if your only experience with weapons comes from Arnold Schwarzenegger movies

I suspect your knowledge of weapons is greater than your previous collection of comments indicate. The tale of the TS 'massacre' is that little something for which Hollywood could have used Arnold because it's mostly a strange collection of phantasmagoric nonsense.

[Plantagenet]

June 4th

On this day in history --1989 -- The People's Liberation Army cracks down on the Tiananmen Square protests in Beijing.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'L')ook again at the one in the guys hand. Ooops, right hand. Unfired.

[eastbay]

Good one. Finally some humor injected into this sorry topic. Thanks!

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'G')ood one. Finally some humor injected into this sorry topic. Thanks!

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'J')une 4th

On this day in history --1989 -- The People's Liberation Army cracks down on the Tiananmen Square protests in Beijing.