Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Standard of Living in Capitalist Economies.

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby cube » Wed 23 May 2007, 18:07:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '.')..
Never said or implied that it did.

But a debt based monetary system is what we have to work with.

And that isn't going to change soon...unless it collapses.
A debt based money system has been around before many times.....and time and time again it "implodes" under it's own weight. One of the events that "helped" lead to the French Revolution involved France adopting a paper money system with a free wheeling printing press. I have a theory that the reason why we have inflation is because people actually like it. It gives immediate short term gain at the expense of long term loss...kinda like a credit card.

But anyways PO is a problem that is 100 times more severe then the inherit flaws of the financial system we as a society have chosen.

my 2 barrels of oil
cube
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby Micki » Wed 23 May 2007, 21:02:56

MonteQuest wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut a debt based monetary system is what we have to work with.


Yes, but the title of the thread suggests it is a discussion about capitalistic systems in general, not necessarily how it is applied today.
Micki
 
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 23 May 2007, 21:48:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '[')b]MonteQuest wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut a debt based monetary system is what we have to work with.


Yes, but the title of the thread suggests it is a discussion about capitalistic systems in general, not necessarily how it is applied today.


Perhaps so, but my comments were in response to yours. Note the part in bold.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') strongly disagree that a capitalist economy must keep growing.

First of all it must be recognised that we currently do not have a true capitalistic (market liberal) systems.

A completely free market will expand and contract according to what the market allows for.

The only reason we need to have growth now is because of greed and the fact that we have propped up and bubbled the economy through intervention, inflation and manipulation, to such an extent that allowing for the necessary contraction would casue serious discomfort.


The only reason we have to have growth now is that it is an absolute requirement of a debt-based money system designed for exponential infinite growth.

In this system, we must have population growth and economic growth, period.

Or it implodes.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby Micki » Wed 23 May 2007, 22:06:45

The current system is based on Boom (read bubble) Bust cycles.
And a bust is natural part of this type of economy.
So even when you say implodes, it means a bust back to a lower baselevel and then start building for another boom again.
i.e. even if a bust is a million times worse then the great depression, there will at some point in time be a bottom and relative to this bottom there will be a rise in the economy.

PO is of course the spanner in the works.
But even so, unless we are all completely doomed, economy will once again, even after a PO meltdown, start growing only from a much Much MUCH lower level than if PO had not been reached. Whether economy can ever grow to same size as now (not saying it is desirable) then will depend on many factors, such as future replacement of fossil fuels or removal etc. But I think this is too far away to speculate about.
Micki
 
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 23 May 2007, 22:19:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', ' ')But even so, unless we are all completely doomed, economy will once again, even after a PO meltdown, start growing only from a much Much MUCH lower level than if PO had not been reached. Whether economy can ever grow to same size as now (not saying it is desirable) then will depend on many factors, such as future replacement of fossil fuels or removal etc. But I think this is too far away to speculate about.


I would say that PO means entering into a depression that never ends.

While the economy lies in tatters, you world will be adding another few billions.

Population growth does not end when the economy stops growing.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')Within a period of time which is very short compared with the total span of human history, supplies of fossil fuels will almost certainly be exhausted. This loss will make man completely dependent upon waterpower, atomic energy, and solar energy for driving his machines.

There are no fundamental physical laws which prevent such a transition, and it is quite possible that society will be able to make the change smoothly.

But it is a transition that will happen only once during the lifetime of the human species...if machine civilization should, because of some catastrophe, stop functioning, it will probably never again come into existence.” Harrison Brown -1954
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby Micki » Wed 23 May 2007, 22:28:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')opulation growth does not end when the economy stops growing.

I thought you were a subscriber of the Olduvai theory which does suggest that population growth will reverse.

Even I, who is not a believer of Olduvai, think that population will shrink. Given the energy input into modern food production (farming, fishing and all) it is just a matter of question if it will be a slow or fast decline and how large as the energy input drops.

I think it was you who also mentioned somewhere that population is going to continue to grow for another 20-30 years.
I don't have any issue with this as my theory doesn't involve any particular timeframe and it makes sense that (unless we have a sudden global famine, war or pestilance) people will keep producing babies at the current pace for a bit longer (and perhaps even after that, just that we will have a dropping average life expectancy).
Micki
 
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 23 May 2007, 23:17:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')opulation growth does not end when the economy stops growing.

I thought you were a subscriber of the Olduvai theory which does suggest that population growth will reverse.

Even I, who is not a believer of Olduvai, think that population will shrink. Given the energy input into modern food production (farming, fishing and all) it is just a matter of question if it will be a slow or fast decline and how large as the energy input drops.

I think it was you who also mentioned somewhere that population is going to continue to grow for another 20-30 years.


A population in overshoot continues to grow even in the face of declining energy/food.

It is the definition of overshoot.

Those born will just have much less than those before.

But...eventually, the population crashes.

Always.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Thu 24 May 2007, 02:55:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'P')opulation growth does not end when the economy stops growing.


Make up your mind.
Conform . Consume . Obey .
User avatar
TommyJefferson
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu 19 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Texas and Los Angeles
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Thu 24 May 2007, 10:09:14

He has always said that, the population will continue to grow larger than it is now, then crash huge.
---
Battle_Scarred_Galactico
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu 07 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby MonteQuest » Thu 24 May 2007, 11:27:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'P')opulation growth does not end when the economy stops growing.


Make up your mind.


What don't you understand?

Overshoot is well defined in the literature.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Thu 24 May 2007, 15:18:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')A population in overshoot continues to grow even in the face of declining energy/food.

It is the definition of overshoot.

Those born will just have much less than those before.

But...eventually, the population crashes.

Always.


Indeed. And whenever it gets too hot and heavy in here, consider the "I is", "you world" etc English used here and imagine this as a gathering of winos at a bus stop. Debating when the Thunderbird will run out!
I_Like_Plants
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3839
Joined: Sun 12 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: 1st territorial capitol of AZ
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby Mircea » Sat 26 May 2007, 04:41:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'C')apitalism is simply an economic system


Capitalism is NOT an economic system.

Capitalism is an economic theory that claims that private individuals should control the means of production, ie the "capital," hence "Capitalism."

Communism is an economic theory that suggets that all capital should be owned and controlled by the people.

Socialist economic theory says that the government should own all capital or have some controlling interest in all capital.

The argument for Capitalism is that private individuals are more responsive to the needs of the markets and can re-allocate capital faster.

Take a factory that makes miniature reel-to-reel cassette tapes for music.

Because private individuals control the capital in Capitalism, private individuals simply say, "Our marketing research indicates consumers prefer the compact disc format over the miniature reel-to-reel cassettes, therefore we shall obtain funding to purchase new capital, such as equipment to manufacture compact discs and retrain our workers to meet market demands."

And it is a done deal.

In Communism, it would go like this,"But we can't purchase new equipment to make compact discs because our 7-Year Economic Plan has already allocated funds for other areas of the economy. We will just have to wait 4 more years until we formulate a new 7-Year Economic Plan and see if we can allocate resources to manufacture compact discs."

Lot's of red-tape and 10 years later they still aren't making compact discs.

For a Socialist system, "We would have to raise taxes to obtain the funding and everyone hates our political party right now so if we raise taxes we won't be re-elected. Maybe after elections we can see about raising taxes to buy equipment to manufacture compact discs."

By the way, have you driven an Astin-Martin or Triumph lately?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'w')here all the good stuff is owned by individuals operating for a profit (or at least an honest attempt is made).


Not "all the good stuff," the means of production.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', ' ')And of course no system can claim to be truly capitalistic unless prices are determined by the free market.


False.

Capitalism is compatible with command economic systems and mixed economic systems (systems that use a blend of free market and command economic systems).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'N')owhere does it say capitalism must have a debt based monetary system.


True. It isn't always necessary to borrow money, and even when it is, there are sources other than banks. Just ask the Mennonites in South and North Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska, Kanasas and elsewhere who shun banks in that area because they're run by catholics.

They often loan money, interest free, to other members of their community (some of you might have to read old books and watch old movies to either learn or refresh your memory about what a "community" is).

Money is also "advanced" interest free in many countries, especially 3rd world countries.

Also note that governments aren't necessary for a stable economy. The only thing that is necessary is a means to enforce contracts and grievances against property rights. For centuries and centuries that was done through religious courts or people's courts, with and without the existence or consent of government.
User avatar
Mircea
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri 04 May 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Sat 26 May 2007, 11:51:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mircea', 'C')ommunism is an economic theory that suggets that all capital should be owned and controlled by the people.


Communism is an economic theory that requires all capital be owned and controlled by a small elite class of people who use physical violence to keep it.

Like you say, it's the ultimate recipe for guaranteed maximum horror and human suffering.
Conform . Consume . Obey .
User avatar
TommyJefferson
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu 19 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Texas and Los Angeles
Top

Re: Capitalist Economy Needs to Waste

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 28 May 2007, 09:03:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mircea', 'C')ommunism is an economic theory that suggets that all capital should be owned and controlled by the people.


Communism is an economic theory that requires all capital be owned and controlled by a small elite class of people who use physical violence to keep it.

Like you say, it's the ultimate recipe for guaranteed maximum horror and human suffering.


Amen. The only ONES that I see that fight dry, academic battles advocating socialism and communism are those that have not physically lived in countries run or destroyed economically by those state-run systems.

I have lived, worked and studied in communist and former communist countries. I will give you a hint, except for the price of bread, those places are doing much better now.

Bottom line. It is not just that command and control economies lack the pricing signals that determine production choices, but the interaction between hundreds of thousands of individual economic variables simply mean that the planned economy is beyond the intellectual limits of any small group of central planners. The examples are too numerous to mention.

Revenue Canada or the IRS are happy to take a slice of anything you happen to produce, but they are not telling you what to produce. Big difference. Wealth transfers from haves to have nots are not socialism.

But specialization and niche markets that would be under the radar screen of central planners are the glue that lowers transaction costs, improve efficiency and keep economies working.

Do not bore me by saying that waiting 10-years for a Trebant or 19- for a Kruchev era cement block apartment where 3-generations live in a two room apartment is preferable to a free market economy. That battle has already been fought and communism found wanting.

Socialism is just dying a slower death. Kept afloat by current prosperity. But peak oil depletion and falling living standards for everyone should be its death knell as well.

Not even U2's Bono is willing to pay your taxes for you, so get used to it.
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
User avatar
MrBill
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Eurasia
Top
Previous
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests