[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I') personally am not looking at it from a "religious" standpoint, I'm looking at it as if a 40 year old shot another 40 year old...I don't know if it should be called "ethics", "wrong", "moral"...but we all call it murder.

[max_power29]

"Cattle die. Kin die. Someday, even ye shall die"-Old Viking proverb

I kind of agree with Jack on this subject. I don't want to be involved in any abortions of my own healthy fetuses, but hell, what do I care if other people have abortions? More power to them actually. More resources/space for me and my progeny.

There is a lot of death and misery in this world and most people, escpecially fundamentalist american christian types could give a rats ass about it to boot. You see people like Pat Roberts railing against abortion yet cheering on the bombing of Iraqis.

To me the murder question is a moot point anyways, since I agree that a fetus is not an individual unless it is viable.

As for myself, I honestly could not care less if I were aborted, as I know I was not even self aware back then.

[ClassicSpiderman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'N')obody gave two shits about a fetus until they figured out that screaming bloody murder about the rights of the fetus was a useful tactic for punishing unsanctioned sex.

[ClassicSpiderman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'S')o you've been BEATEN down ,as I have been...only, I'm not willing to allow others to die without a vioce. The one without a voice really should be heard.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClassicSpiderman', 'I')n the end, it's probably best that those parents who believe in killing their unborn do not get to procreate. I give props to those whacko Mormon polygamists who are having 30-40 kids each. The future belongs to their offspring

[RonMN]

Jack Wrote:
However, if the act were legal (i.e., at least immunity from prosecution and civil indemnification), then I see no reason not to terminate such meat-bags as need removal.

Yup...we definatly disagree on this one. Sure i can see it out of self preservation/defense, but just to "drop" someone because i had legal immunity & i had the power...Well, I don't think i could live with myself after that point.

[Carlhole]

Here we go again. Every presidential election cycle the mass media and politicians blitz this issue all over again. Even though there are many more important things to decide, such as energy security or healtcare, the Abortion Debate always consumes all the oxygen in the room. It will never be definitively decided. If Roe vs Wade were over-turned, media and politicians would simply begin arguing it again all over the next time around. Here is why:

The Abortion Debate is about choosing the greater evil. Some believe that government intrusiveness in private life is the greater evil. If we allow government increasingly greater powers to intrude into private life, the culmination of that progression will be a Totalitarian Communist State. It's odd that Republicans have come to champion the Pro-Life position because essentially they are saying that government should be allowed to curtail a citizen's choice. It's very anti-Libertarian.

OTOH, some people believe that legalized abortions are the greater evil, allowing people to kill millions of unborn children. Drawing the line at first trimester is not good enough for these people. Life begins at conception so an abortion of a fertilized egg is tantamount to murder just as is partial birth abortion - NO COMPROMISES - IT"S ALL EVIL!

So, OK... no compromises. What do prefer: living under a Totalitarian Communist Regime or living in a system which allows for legal abortions in certain circumstances?

[dbruning]

Didn't someone make a post a little while ago regarding us needing an eventual increase in mortality of 200,000,000 per year?

What about women that have been raped and became pregnant.

If the poll is between keeping the government from achieving even greater control (and it's already quite mind boggling) and allowing women the choice to abort an unwanted pregnancy, I'll go with the women's choice option.

Why force the pregnancy to go full term and then have the poor child deal with a potentially miserable life, being unwanted, and all of the hardship the next several generations are in for?

I also think after the 2nd abortion a mandatory neutering needs to happen. While I agree sometimes a horrible situation calls for an abortion, I think the people that use them as birth control need to have the option of reproduction removed.

my $0.02, this issue is one you'll get more emotion than logic in, so it's pretty much impossible to get a permanent concensus. Which is why it's perfect for the politicians. Gotta keep the publics focus away from what is likely to be future hardship. Gotta get re-elected.

[NEOPO]

What this world has known as communism has been everything but...
This is Fascism bro.

Fascism

Now change the freakin' poll so I can vote

Pro choice all the way and those who know me understand that my position is founded upon the stone's of personal experience.

[Tanada]

Communism all the way, it is so contrary to human nature it will always collapse in upon itself within a generation or two. Abortion is permanent, for the aborted, and all about selfishness. Abortion is a symptom of the general decay of selflessness into selfishness that leads to dependency upon the state and ultimately bondage as a serf/slave for TPTB.

[NEOPO]

Remind us all, oh wise one, exactly when was it that people were not slaves?

[basil_hayden]

Can I hold out for both?

I can't speak for all, but I prefer quality to quantity, whether it's beer, bourbon, food, women, various obstacles and challenges, my time on the planet, or whatever.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'C')ommunism all the way, it is so contrary to human nature it will always collapse in upon itself within a generation or two. Abortion is permanent, for the aborted, and all about selfishness. Abortion is a symptom of the general decay of selflessness into selfishness that leads to dependency upon the state and ultimately bondage as a serf/slave for TPTB.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'C')ommunism all the way, it is so contrary to human nature it will always collapse in upon itself within a generation or two. Abortion is permanent, for the aborted, and all about selfishness. Abortion is a symptom of the general decay of selflessness into selfishness that leads to dependency upon the state and ultimately bondage as a serf/slave for TPTB.

[Newsseeker]

I saw the movie The Lives of Other People about the East German Stasi and I also saw Goodbye Lenin which briefly touches on life in East Germany. I saw an idyllic little community of workers overseen by a protective fatherly Stasi to keep them out of trouble. Nothing wrong with the dictatorship of the proletariat as long as I get to be one of the dictators (preferably a high-ranking one). That is my opinion.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'A')bortion is permanent, for the aborted, and all about selfishness.

[Tanada]

The quality of life of an unwanted ABORTED child is what exactly? We make up these excuses to ease the phychological impact of what we choose to do. The quality of life of an unwanted ADOPTED child vs the quality of life for an unwanted ABORTED child....not too hard to figure out.

As for ecosystem pressure and all the other reasons you mentioned being possible good reasons, it they were reasoned responses and not emotional responses you might have a leg to stand on. However choosing to not have a particular child puts you fore square in Jevons Paradox, you conserve on your genes while the wastrels do not and you make the situation worse, not better. Life on Earth is no different than a petri dish, so long as there is food without too much waste the population will expand and once the population stabilizes the genetic winenrs are those with the largest stake. (I don't have a dog in this fight BTW, I have married twice and both my ex-wife and current wife are sterile)

I just don't like people deceiving themselves with pretty lies, you do what you do and if you can't take the mental pressure you make up a lie to explain away why you had to do it. Man/Woman up and accept responsibillity for your actions.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'T')he quality of life of an unwanted ABORTED child is what exactly?

[RonMN]

TWilliam Wrote:
If, on the other hand, one's reasons involve considerations such as quality of life for the unwanted child, increasing pressures on an already overtaxed ecosystem, etc., then that is a decidedly non-selfish stance.


If somebody decided to off YOU for those same reasons...is that unselfish or OK?

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I')f somebody decided to off YOU for those same reasons...is that unselfish or OK?