PeakOil is You
THE "Found on Yahoo" Thread (merged)
Re: Heathen Peak Oil forum now in yahoo lists
by Loki » Wed 18 Apr 2007, 02:17:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut at what cost? How was the fabric of society changed?
Human culture was changed almost universally for the better because of the actions of Coyote. He's a culture hero, respected though not worshipped. The Chinookans say that Coyote taught the people where to fish for salmon, what kind of gear to use, how to prepare the fish, which rituals to observe to ensure the annual return, etc., etc., etc. Hell, Coyote gave salmon to the people to begin with. He even gave some of them mouths to eat the salmon with (they used to just sniff the fumes). But he also got into quite a bit of mischief, and was a crude dude (having conversations with his feces was one of his favorite activities). He certainly didn't take himself too seriously, and neither did the Chinookans.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ost folkfaiths around the world SPECIFICALLY claim that their Gods of their own tribes ARE their elder kin!
That's not been my experience. The American Indian groups (mostly Chinookans and Sahaptins) I've studied the most certainly don't have this understanding of the gods. They don't even have 'gods'; they lived in a world of spirits. The Wishram people traced their ancestry back to a monster that Coyote slew and dismembered. The various tribes arose from the different body parts. But Coyote wasn't a creator. He was more of a transformer.
Even in Europe and Asia, there's a social context you're overlooking. I'm aware that some European and Asian peoples did trace their ancestry to the gods, but the examples I've seen appear to be a way to rationalize the power structure. The Japanese imperial family tracing their lineage back to Amaterasu is a perfect example of this. Heracles is another good example. He was quite the popular 'ancestor' among the ruling class of ancient Greece. And of course, having divine ancestry makes one particularly fit to rule over 'lesser' people.
As for Buddhism, yes, most Americans practice a syncretic version of Buddhism. But a cursory overview of Buddhist history shows this is the norm, not an exception. There is no 'pure' tradition of Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism and its Japanese descendants are highly syncretic. And my statement about the role of the gods in Buddhism is based on reading the sutras. The gods are simply inhabitants of another realm of rebirth. Folk practice is almost certainly different (bringing me back to the syncretic nature of Asian Buddhism), but the gods play a very minor role in philosophical Buddhism.
As for your distaste for Buddhists (my maternal ancestors were Buddhist, by the way), I would suggest you do some more research on Buddhist history and ideas. From your post, it appears you haven't delved into it much. But I suspect the 'organized' aspect makes you immediately reject it (Taoism is also an organized tradition by the way, and like Buddhism, it enjoyed varying degrees of patronage by the aristocracy). Are there examples of Buddhists engaging in raping/murdering/pillaging/conquering over the course of the last 2,500 years? Of course. Name me a single group that hasn't engaged in that behavior. Rejecting 2,500 years of tradition, practice, art, and fabulous philosophizing because of one incident in one place is far from fair minded. And I'd remind you that the various pagan peoples of Europe were known to invade, conquer, and brutalize each other.
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Re: Heathen Peak Oil forum now in yahoo lists
by blukatzen » Wed 18 Apr 2007, 03:13:20
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut at what cost? How was the fabric of society changed?
Well, I meant that as rhetorical, but we shall continue on with this point..
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')uman culture was changed almost universally for the better because of the actions of Coyote. He's a culture hero, respected though not worshipped.
As with some of our Gods, but as I had said, some do not respect all aspects of the Gods, for they had shortcomings and faults of their own. And some may not respect those traits and wish to align their life with a God that may have a trait that they despise personally, for themself.
Hmnnn, "culture hero"...I don't see Loki as one of those, at all. (if we are staying with the culture paradigm.
You must remember, Amerindian culture and Indo-European culture were at different time frames of technological awareness, and this influenced their God-paradigms. I see the Amerindians more as Animists, like you have mentioned below.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Chinookans say that Coyote taught the people where to fish for salmon, what kind of gear to use, how to prepare the fish, which rituals to observe to ensure the annual return, etc., etc., etc. Hell, Coyote gave salmon to the people to begin with.
..and there are legends of Gods in Europe giving particular foods for their people to eat. But they were not "tricksters" and had no need to co-erce their folk to eat. I am not arguing your point that you make, however. You are discussing your observation, and I am discussing mine. Thank you for educating me about the Chinookans!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ost folkfaiths around the world SPECIFICALLY claim that their Gods of their own tribes ARE their elder kin!
That's not been my experience. The American Indian groups (mostly Chinookans and Sahaptins) I've studied the most certainly don't have this understanding of the gods. They don't even have 'gods'; they lived in a world of spirits. The Wishram people traced their ancestry back to a monster that Coyote slew and dismembered. The various tribes arose from the different body parts. But Coyote wasn't a creator. He was more of a transformer.
Ahh, but here again is our cultural difference. I think the Chinook people were at a different level of experience (and I DO NOT mean this in a negative way WHATSOEVER) than the Indo-European folk. I think the Chinook were living in a more shaman-based society that some would call "primitive" but I would say it was more "core-based." Germanic and other Indo-European "tribes" had that at their experience at one time, but based upon the migrations of other peoples into their territory (starting the Migration era into Europe) came to different conclusions as their society coalesced into towns, based upon clans that formed into tribes, formed into nations.
Their own growth of their own society gave them different paradigms, and hence, a different perspective of their Gods throughout time.
There is a tale of war between the older Vanir cult, and the Aesir cult, which replaced it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven in Europe and Asia, there's a social context you're overlooking. I'm aware that some European and Asian peoples did trace their ancestry to the gods, but the examples I've seen appear to be a way to rationalize the power structure. .... And of course, having divine ancestry makes one particularly fit to rule over 'lesser' people.
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