[zoidberg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cynicalheretic', 'N')ot a chance in hell. Btw what difference does it make how much electricity I am generating? If they want to make their money just average by electrical use over the last two years, divide by 24 and charge that to me a month. It's not like if I go 2 mW over that it will actually hurt their bottom line.


Also why do I have to make the difference up to my local utilities.

The whole thing sounds a little too fucking retarded to me. I will get my electricity the old fashion way "burning puppies"

[TheDude]

Will they install in Uganda? I just received a 20.6 million bank transfer from a dead prince's family and will be moving there.
Also, do they include armed guards to protect the panels from starving marauders?

[cynicalheretic]

BS I will just by the panels and and install it myself. If I go off the grid I will buy my own panels. I am not going to be behoved to some corp

[chuck6877]

Yea, I got my hand slapped.............

No more linking to the citizenre site unless it leaves out my personal code.

I really do think it's a good deal for anyone though, if you look at it with the same open mind you looked at peak oil with.

Don't reserve a system under me or anyone just reserve you a system with no one getting the commission which is only 5% of their electric bill per month.

As far as installing, they're going to have independent installers all over the country that will install the same type of system with the same parts to every roof.

As far as billing goes, it's different per state. It depends on the net-metering laws. If your state has favorable net-metering laws they'll try to install a system that will cover all your electrical needs.
How it will work:
1)They'll average how much energy you use per year
2)They'll put a system that will provide that many KWh per year
3)Net-metering is how you'll have built up credits to use the solar produced during the day for use at night or in the winter.

If your state does not have net-metering you can not get a system.
Net-metering is the meter going backwards. Some states let you use these credited KWh one for one throughout the year. Some states will reimburse you per month at the avoided-cost (about a third of your cost) which is a loss to you the consumer.

They will have an EVEN-PAY system where your bill will be the same per month, that way in the summer months your bill won't be a lot larger than in the winter months.

One key point: If you paid 9 cents per KWh in 2005, if you reserve before the end of February you'll be paying 9 cents per KWh till 2033.....

I hope they are for real! Because besides this, I've only prepared myself by staying out of debt and saving money......
Jet

[smallpoxgirl]

There are a number of factors that influence the financial viability of photovoltaics: Insolation (i.e. the average amount of sun in a given location), grid electricity costs, and government incentives being the most significant. Someplace like Southern California, they may be tenuously competitive. Northwest Montana is cloudy and gray most of the year, has cheap hydroelectric sourced grid power, and no government incentives for alternative energy. Here, grid tied photovoltaics are a white elephant. I defy anyone to demonstrate how CitizenRe could possibly install panels on my roof in Northwest Montana under the pricing scheme they claim, and make a profit. Corporations do not exist to loose money. Maybe the do a teaser promotion for a while and then jerk up the price, but they don't lock themselves into 25 year contracts that are going to loose money the whole time. As far as I can tell the entire thing is utter dog feces.

Your money would be better spent trying to track down the Nigerian bank president that keeps emailing me trying to give me 2 million dollars. Maybe he'll put some solar panel on your roof, because CitizenRe ain't gonna.

[gg3]

As soon as I see MLM, I run in the opposite direction clutching my stomach.

At most there should be THREE levels in a distribution system: Manufacturer, wholesaler, and retailer. There are three possible business models here:

1) Manufacturers can sell to wholesalers, who in turn sell to retailers, who in turn sell to the public. For "wholesalers," you can substitute the term "distributors" if you like. The wholesaler or distributor's job is to maintain a decently large inventory, to enable retailers to maintain smaller inventories and thus be more responsive to changes in customer demand.

2) Manufacturers can legitimately sell directly to retailers, who in turn sell to the public. ("Wholesale to the public" is an oxymoronic term for this and should be an illegal (fraudulent) advertising claim. If the customer is an end-user, it's a retail sale.)

3) Manufacturers can legitimately sell directly to the public, for example Apple and Dell.

The first model is the most common, and it's the one I'm involved in, that Panasonic uses for its high-end PBX products. The retailer is a "certified systems dealer" (CSD) who has been appropriately trained by Panasonic, passed the exam, and who must be able to service what s/he sells to end users. My company is a Panasonic CSD, and I'm not going to spam the column here by posting our web link:-)

Under these legitimate business models, there is a clear demarcation between who is and who isn't in on the deal, and thus, who is biased and who is objective. If you ask me about a new phone system, you know I'm going to recommend Panasonic and offer to install it. If you ask your pal across town to recommend a new phone system, you can be quite sure that if they recommend Panasonic or any other reputable brand, they are not getting a fee or kickback for doing so: your friend's recommendation is objective.

With MLM, you can't trust what you hear because there are no objective parties: anyone can secretly be in on the deal, so anyone can have a bias, and it's impossible to tell who is what. And this in turn degrades the overall levels of trust in relationships. It's as if you had an old friend whose advice you could always trust, but now your old pal has suddenly been recruited to be a meme-replicator for a meme that does not care about what's good for you.

With the legitimate traditional business models, every stage in the system adds real value. The distributor or wholesaler is there to hold large inventory and be a regional point of contact for local retailers. The local retailers are supposed to be responsive to their local markets, i.e. to their end-user customers.

With MLM, you get all of these intermediate levels that add zero value to the transaction: they are merely meme-replicators. If my memetically-compromised pal signs me up for a solar system with Citizenre, would s/he be able to help me out if I needed a repair or a bill adjustment?

Here's are two legitimate business models for solar panel rentals:

One, a company sets itself up as a national brand and acts as a distributor: buys PVs from manufacturers, and sells them to local retailers who act as the company's sales agents and service providers, installing them for the general public. The end-users pay rentals to either of those two levels. .

Two, a company sets itself up as a utility and sells electricity to end users, via PVs on their roofs. In this case the company itself, i.e. the national brand, would have its own customer service center, and would have either employees or contractors in the local areas to carry out installations and repairs.

In both of these cases, the company itself, and/or its associated contractors who install & repair, would act in a sales capacity; and of course they would also pay for marketing expenses such as advertising and promotions.

The only remotely legitimate reason to go MLM is if you don't have the capital to conduct a legitimate marketing campaign. However, what that tells me is that a company is over-reaching: instead it should focus its smaller amount of capital on a smaller market area, develop that market, and then bootstrap into larger area coverage.

Bottom line is, by hook or by crook, MLM impugns reputations, erodes trust, and doesn't add value. It can make an otherwise-legitimate business seem vaguely dubious at best. And it can make an entire field of endeavor look sufficiently dubious as to drive out potentially legitimate participants.

Last but not least, in in MLM, very few people make decent money, including those who believe they're in early enough to make decent money. Big tradeoffs for small gains. Sucks, doesn't it...?

[Tyler_JC]

OK, what happens if I produce 10 kilowatts of power in a given time period but only use 5 kilowatts.

Would I personally be allowed to profit on the difference?

I'm not talking about net metering here, I'm talking about ending the month with a significant surplus of electricity.

Does Citizenre sell that to the grid and keep the profits?

Moreover, what happens if the costs of producing these solar panels increase dramatically (as they have over the past few years thanks to a polysilicon shortage)?

Would they still only charge me 8 cents per KWh?

Lastly, what makes them so sure that these panels will be a good investment? Why don't they just buy up a bunch of cheap land and install the panels on their own property to take advantage of what is sure to be a massive jump in electricity prices?

And if inflation really takes hold, Citizenre is screwed!

If I were this company, I would put up panels in some remote desert and ship the power to Phoenix or Las Vegas instead of depending on a diffuse network of clients that are locked in for 25 years.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'A')s soon as I see MLM, I run in the opposite direction clutching my stomach.

etc etc etc...

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')'m not talking about net metering here, I'm talking about ending the month with a significant surplus of electricity.

Does Citizenre sell that to the grid and keep the profits?

[gg3]

Thanks TWilliam.

IMHO it's perectly legitimate for a company to install PVs on the "rental" or "utility" model, and profit from the spread if your roof produces more power than you use. And it shouldn't be in the fine print either, becuase it's nothing to be ashamed of.

The deal is very simple:

Company puts $20 - 30k worth of PVs on your roof, you pay for power at a fixed rate, company sells surplus to the utility. You benefit from having a fixed price for power that is competitively lower than the regular utility rate. The company benefits from the profit on the surplus power generation. The utility benefits from gaining generating capacity at zero capital cost to itself. And the world-at-large benefits from having more renewable energy on the grid. (Too bad we can't do it the same way with micro-reactors.)

It's a win-win-win solution all around. No one loses. This is capitalism at its absolute best. And it will generate high levels of word-of-mouth referrals based purely on the fact that it's already a good deal for the end-user.

Word-of-mouth advertising is the best any company can get. It's the gold standard in the marketing business: every company strives for high word-of-mouth levels. But MLM completely trashes the value of word-of-mouth to a company, because all of those mouths are suspect. So in fact, what Citizenre ends up doing is making a mess out of what could otherwise be a highly viable business.

[chuck6877]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'O')K, what happens if I produce 10 kilowatts of power in a given time period but only use 5 kilowatts.

You would pay Citizenre for the power produced. The excess is either credited for availability in future months by your local utility or paid to you at the retail rate or avoided-cost rate.

Would I personally be allowed to profit on the difference?
Yes. Since they monitor your usage though, if this happens for a while, they'll come and take some panels from you to make sure the panels are only producing the energy you use.

I'm not talking about net metering here, I'm talking about ending the month with a significant surplus of electricity.

Does Citizenre sell that to the grid and keep the profits?
No. You are the person that sells it to the grid.

Moreover, what happens if the costs of producing these solar panels increase dramatically (as they have over the past few years thanks to a polysilicon shortage)?
The rates they charge new customers goes up every year with the inflation of energy costs. This will insulate them from inflation. Also the company is doing things to avoid the rising costs of solar grade silicon. They are going to turn metallurgical-grade silicon into solar-grade. See: http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx? ... +the+Dirty

Would they still only charge me 8 cents per KWh?
Yes, because your panels have already been built and financed through what the borrowing costs and production costs were at the time you received them. To pay off the debt from the panels on your roof, you simply have to keep paying your bills. If you don't they'll take the panels from you and give them to someone else at their current electric rate of probably much higher.

Lastly, what makes them so sure that these panels will be a good investment? Why don't they just buy up a bunch of cheap land and install the panels on their own property to take advantage of what is sure to be a massive jump in electricity prices?
Great question.....They say they want to help make a difference. Maybe they mean it?

And if inflation really takes hold, Citizenre is screwed!
Why? Say the panels cost 20,000 today. When you lock in your rate, they won't put them on your roof unless they can see that your payments for 25 years will pay off the debt that will be at a fixed rate. Their only costs were building the panels. As long as the debt is financed they're golden. When inflation takes off, they'll charge what the rising electric rates are at the time. They have a 7 cent per KWh min. now to break even. This will raise as energy costs raise. They definitely are not screwed. Panels already on people's homes are being paid for. New panels will cost more yes but they'll charge more to pay them off.

If I were this company, I would put up panels in some remote desert and ship the power to Phoenix or Las Vegas instead of depending on a diffuse network of clients that are locked in for 25 years.
Yea that would be a better idea in my opinion as well.....

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chuck6877', 'I')f I were this company, I would put up panels in some remote desert and ship the power to Phoenix or Las Vegas instead of depending on a diffuse network of clients that are locked in for 25 years.
Yea that would be a better idea in my opinion as well.....

[chuck6877]

Smallpox,

I guess the only big question then, is how cheaply can they make the solar panels?

They claim that at current costs they only need to collect 7 cents per KWh produced per panel to make a profit.

They are going to build the largest solar power plant in the world. Economies of scale and avoiding the middleman will bring down costs.

The numerous accelerated depreciation rules for alternative energies and tax credits and deductions will help bring down their cost as well. Most solar companies can't claim the 30% tax CREDIT because consumers that buy the panels get it, but Citizenre will continue to own the panels and get to take that deduction.

In Texas, where their plant is supposed to be built, they would not have to pay state income tax as well, since they're building solar panels.

To reduce costs more they're going to turn metallurgical silicon into solar grade silicon.

Companies that are going the metallurgical route for their silicon:
SolarWorld, Dow Corning, Elkem, JFE Steel, and smaller companies Solarvalue, CaliSolar, and Citizenre.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')......solar startup Citizenre CEO David Gregg said last week the company also plans to take that route (metallurgical silicon).

The Wilmington, Delaware-based company plans to install residential solar systems at no upfront cost, instead charging customers for the electricity at 2005 rates. Mr. Gregg said the company plans to make its own solar modules, and to get the silicon by purifying metallurgical silicon into solar silicon.

[zoidberg]

Nobody wants them to fail, but before anyone gets their hopes up we'd like to find out more. I mean, no-one really believes they have a realistic chance of doing what they say they're going to do. I mean, they dont have solar panels, or a way to make them yet. They haven't broken ground on the factory yet! What is up with that? theres about 8000 customers spread across the country? Thats not a good way to start a business. Comments about starting in southern california seems a good way to start, then build from there.

You yourself have locked in for old electricity rates, but they havent made the solar panels yets for you. This implies they're going to take a loss for your business, and presumably for everyone who's signed up so far. Again, not entirely realistic.

The energy solutions business seems to attract more than its share of scam artists and half baked ideas. With Citizenre it to me seems to have a good idea(if they actually had solar panels), so it deserves harsher criticism. Its mostly constructive really.

[TheDude]

Have companies tried something similiar in the past and made it work? My snickering comment comes from mostly being concerned about fuel, not juice. PV's aren't going to power tractors/trucks/cars and make fertilizer/pesticide. And won't the big utilities squash this like a leafcutter beetle if it gets too popular?
I'd agree that this should mostly be implemented in sunny climes - where it makes sense. Everyone agrees that a wide range of solutions should be employed. Maybe they'll start up sister companies for wind, and...uh...actually I can't see everyone putting a turbine on their roofs. It'd ruin the view. Well, in the 'burbs what view is there to be enjoyed anyway?

[TheDude]

Hey, the Post Office is promising to sell us "fixed-rate" stamps:

With USPS's new 'forever' stamp, no need to worry about rate changes.

Maybe the crest of a new wave of price fixes in all kinds of sectors? Could be a whole phantom industry in of itself - no more absurd than a whole nation trying to get by on services like fast food and homebuilding.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('chuck6877', 'T')hey claim that at current costs they only need to collect 7 cents per KWh produced per panel to make a profit.

[chuck6877]

A lot of the same concerns you guys have, I have. Like why are they offering these in Seattle? I think it's to build a gigantic waiting list of 100,000 plus through the entire country through word of mouth and that they're then going to tell a bunch of people, "Sorry, they just won't work for you" and keep the people that it does work for. They'll piss a bunch of people off, but a large number will be great candidates for the panels and will accept them.

The company has $650 million in debt financing to build the plant and get their company going. Hopefully they'll build their plant and panels. I'm kind of living on faith like my religion right now!

I couldn't wait to sign up. There are now 8,500 on the waiting list. They're only building 20,000 in 2008. Eventually they'll be pumping out 100,000/year but not for a long while. I didn't want to have to wait till 2009, 2010, or later to get my panels if this was for real.

Plus, I lose nothing by getting on the waiting list because there is a way out, if you don't want to do this.

The President even admits in the forums and it is in writing in the "General Terms and Conditions" that if you don't want to do this, simply tell the engineer when they come to your house that you don't like the design of the panels they show you and you don't have to accept them.

Also if they try to raise your rates, you can back out if you want.

I have found in the wording of the contract from reading between the lines, that it looks like they can sneak in rate increases if they start losing money, which I expect they'll do. BUT, me the customer if I don't find it acceptable after this happens can back out at any time. I expect they'll raise people's rates because like you guys are concerned about inflation, I am too. If they lock me in to 8 cents per KWh but the hyperinflation starts a year from now before they build my panels they will not make money.

I'd like you guys to read the "General Terms and Conditions" of the Rental Agreement if you guys could and tell me if you see any more catches that might get me or someone else:
http://www.citizenre.net/extras/fra_tos.pdf

Thanks guys,
Chuck

[chuck6877]

Oh and people in Seattle with 6 cents per KWh would not be able to get Citizenre panels.

They have a limit that they will not give panels to anyone with electricity prices less than 7 cents per KWh.

You also have to have net-metering which they're very strict about.

Jet

[chuck6877]

Almost 9,000 people have reserved a system now.

Today is the last day to reserve a system and get your 2005 electric rates locked in.

I won't get a commission, but do it for yourself!

www.jointhesolution.com
watch the video and read the FAQ

Be sure to put your home information in(roof type, direction it faces, etc.) or you won't get 2005 rates locked in.

If you decide not to do it later, you don't have to. You never give them a penny till the solar panels are on your roof.

Chuck