[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'B')y not answering my response, you are in essence endorsing excessive consumption. Please don't direct me to books or pamphlets...

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'W')hat logic planet are you on?

[Aaron]

Ok I give...

I'll accept thuja the therapist's declarations as valid & turn my back on the observations of Prof. Bartlett, Dr. Smalley, Jared Diamond etc... whose work I am simply repeating to you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd then you come and tell me that local efforts towards weaning off fossil fuels is causing the problem...

[thuja]

Do you believe that taking individual conservation methods have
merit ?

MQ's resonse: No


Do you believe that we should all be excessively consumptive?

MQ's resonse: No


PLease elaborate. Individual conservation methods have no merit but we shouldn't be excessively consumptive. I'm trying to work out the logic on this one.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'D')o you believe that taking individual conservation methods have
merit ?

MQ's resonse: No


Do you believe that we should all be excessively consumptive?

MQ's resonse: No


PLease elaborate. Individual conservation methods have no merit but we shouldn't be excessively consumptive. I'm trying to work out the logic on this one.

[thuja]

Aaron-

you are much more blunt than MQ and I see a slight disagreement between you two. You are much more bold in stating that individual and local conservatin methods are quite damaging and will end up causing increased growth and a more imminent collapse.

MQ is equivocating about conservation versus excessive consumption. But there really is no middle point...either we choose to be more conservative- which you say is horrifyingly destructive, or we choose to be incredibly consumptive...which has been horribly destructive.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'M')Q is equivocating about conservation versus excessive consumption. But there really is no middle point...either we choose to be more conservative- which you say is horrifyingly destructive, or we choose to be incredibly consumptive...which has been horribly destructive.

[thuja]

No I understand perfectly well what you have been saying. No response to Peak OIl on a small scale will have any effect on the underlying problem. IN fact it most likely exacerbates the problem. Therefore, the world's population needs to go through a massive paradigm change in thinking. This problem needs to be tackled at a global level to have any difference whatsoever. There- is that a good summarization of your views?

By saying I don't have a grasp on this is silly. I understand your views and the logic behind them. I also agree generally with the idea that solutions in situ will be ineffective.

However, and this is a big however...you guys have a hard time bringing this view of the world down to a practical level. Would you have us wait until a federal and international body convenes to work on the multi-headed dragons of PO, GW and overpopulation? I call that vision impractical at best.

And if you believe that only global solutions matter, then your logic points to individual nihilism...the idea that what I do on an individual level doesn't matter so I might as well not try. Your use of Jevon's paradox points us to avoiding individual and community responsibility. And yes, MQ, I know you never said it, but you infer it. Certainly, Aaron out and out states it.

Please, don't insult me with the idea that I don't "get it". I still believe that international efforts must be combined with local efforts to deal with the coming times. And yes, that means individual efforts towards conservation.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ') And yes, MQ, I know you never said it, but you infer it.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'H')owever, and this is a big however...you guys have a hard time bringing this view of the world down to a practical level. Would you have us wait until a federal and international body convenes to work on the multi-headed dragons of PO, GW and overpopulation? I call that vision impractical at best.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', 'O')n our own, my wife and I could last to summer, but how long would we last surrounded as an island in a sea of starving and freezing humanity?

[thuja]

Hey- we agree on the likely futurre scenarios although #2 is out of the realm of possibility to be laughable. We all agree that #1 is "pie in the sky". That leaves # 3. Hey, we agree.


One of the main reasons I argued for individual and local efforts is really more of a philosophical difference. How would you like to go down? How would you like to die? Would you like to do it tending your permaculture gardens and harvesting wild mushrooms, or eating up the last remaining resources driving a Gas-hog and sitting behind the walls of a McMansion fortress?

It comes down to choosing a way to die that is honorable and is at least reaching towards the notion of living sustainably.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ')How would you like to die?

[retiredguy]

Thuja,

You seem like a very caring person and I really do understand your empathy for your fellow human beings. Most of my friends are liberals who think there is a solution for every type of human suffering if we just had the will to pursue it. But this is delusional thinking, in fact it is this type of thinking that will ensure the worst possible outcome.

Please take Monte's advice and read "Tragedy of the Commons." It will be worth your effort.

If it makes you feel good to recycle, put up solar panels, heat with wood, etc., etc., continue to do that. In fact just continue to live your life the best way you know how. Unless you are religious, you must realize that humans don't have a divine right to continue living in comfort and prosperity on this planet. A lot of people alive today don't have this reality.

Get out of your culture-defined box and really think about how life works on this planet. Human existence may just be one phase in the earth's history, just like dinosaurs and trilobites. We don't have any greater right to exist than the bacteria that will probably outlive us.

At this point in our history, our population and its resource use is too great for this planet to sustain for much longer. Once the energy needed to support this population begins to run out, bad things are going to happen.

My personal view is that Americans will choose to nuke the planet rather than accept drastic changes to their lifestyles. I guess that falls under Aaron's point three.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', 'P')lease take Monte's advice and read "Tragedy of the Commons." It will be worth your effort.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t comes down to choosing a way to die that is honorable and is at least reaching towards the notion of living sustainably.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', 'T')huja,

You seem like a very caring person and I really do understand your empathy for your fellow human beings. Most of my friends are liberals who think there is a solution for every type of human suffering if we just had the will to pursue it. But this is delusional thinking, in fact it is this type of thinking that will ensure the worst possible outcome.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ')But it sounds like you are proposing giving up.

[retiredguy]

Thuja,

I read "The Plague" in 1968 while in college. Have you read "No Exit" by Sartre? These existential authors DID change my way of thinking.

By the way, I don't live in a McMansion. I installed my first solar collector in 1980. What were you doing back then?

I heat with solar and wood and would use photovoltaics if they were cost-effective. And I drive a Prius. My Tacoma is used for hauling wood.

Despite having spent most of my life exploring alternatives to fossil fuels, I labor under no illusion that my poor efforts will do anything to alter the fate that awaits us.

Very few people I've discussed the fossil fuel issue with really get it. Most, like Monte says, spend their time trying to figure out how to preserve their present way of living in within the new paradigm.

If you have a grand scheme to preserve life as we know it or one that will lead us to the new promised land, please share it. I keep asking this question and continue to get no response.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', 'T')huja,

I read "The Plague" in 1968 while in college. Have you read "No Exit" by Sartre? These existential authors DID change my way of thinking.

By the way, I don't live in a McMansion. I installed my first solar collector in 1980. What were you doing back then?

I heat with solar and wood and would use photovoltaics if they were cost-effective. And I drive a Prius. My Tacoma is used for hauling wood.

Despite having spent most of my life exploring alternatives to fossil fuels, I labor under no illusion that my poor efforts will do anything to alter the fate that awaits us.

Very few people I've discussed the fossil fuel issue with really get it. Most, like Monte says, spend their time trying to figure out how to preserve their present way of living in within the new paradigm.

If you have a grand scheme to preserve life as we know it or one that will lead us to the new promised land, please share it. I keep asking this question and continue to get no response.