[PenultimateManStanding]

atoms also come together in ways that don't replicate. most matter is non-self-replicating. so the self-replication phenomenon is not a feature of atoms anymore than a wave on the ocean is "just water". so if I'm correct, you are perfecty aware of this and your question is really, how can inanimate matter form living matter? and you think the these experiments showing that spin information can be preserved by photons and transmitted is going to lead to a breakthrough in understanding the inanimate/animate problem. My point is that this doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint because most matter is inanimate. It's a reductionist issue to me. That's what the "emergent properties" notion is about: something exists which is an epiphenomenon, irreducible.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oowolf', 'T')he universe is the "inside" of a black hole. Everything came here from the "other side" of the singularity.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'a')toms also come together in ways that don't replicate. most matter is non-self-replicating.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')This is obviously academic argument only, made just for fun.

[seahorse]

No PMS, I disagree that bc most matter is not living, it takes away from the evolution of atoms into living beings - I would argue is a complex very interconnected system, similar to a program, that they are all a part of the same phenomenon. For example, if we were asked to define "ourselves", any definition of self as a living being cannot be separated from sun, water, or all other matter. It all one and the same, different atoms are behaving differently. My body takes in non living matter every day, the atoms in my body are constantly changing form, sometimes "living" and sometimes returning to simply lifeless matter again. That doesn't take away from the fact that atoms themselves may hold or be sharing information via a memory or code by which they behave. Computer programming at its essence involves opening and closing gates, same with atoms, some are open, some are closed, I don't see the distinction between living or "dead" as being significant.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I') don't see the distinction between living or "dead" as being significant.

[NEOPO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', '
')
Neopo,

No question in my mind that modern science and religion/philosophy are hopessly entangled. However, that doesn't or should stop us from asking questions and attempting to understand the world around us. As Thomas Paine said in his book, "The Age of Reason" in which he thoroughly debunked the Bible, he concluded by saying the proof of god is all around us, and that religion, the study of God, is simply trying to understand the universe.

[PenultimateManStanding]

I remember way back when when we agreed on Theosophy, NEO. My take on Theosophy was it's an elevation of plants. The mysterious power of plants. A Spritual Realm right here before us but we are too blind to see it. And yes, it includes the molecular effects of certain plants... Symbiosis or danger? My feeling is that marijuana is a trickster. I picked up the spirit of the trickster and laid it on, you took it too serious, you took it as a personal insult which it was never meant to be. I was kidding around with Raph, that's all.

[seahorse]

If DNA isn't intelligent, then where does intelligence come from?

Evolution makes more sense to view it as operating under a system or "rules." This is what is suggested in "Conways Game of Life" cited by Doly, born out in the various computer experiments into evolution, and in fact, born out in what we know about evolution, "survival of the fittest." It makes more sense to believe that, sense atoms are capable of storing information and receiving information via light, that in fact, the universe is quite likely a evolving "matrix" for lack of a better analogy, but very connected. Just like a computer program with open or closed gates, atoms may be open or closed at any one time, but obviously all working within a system that ultimately produces some for of life, which cannot, as we know, be separated from lifeless matter.

Now, on a tangent, we have said how human cells don't replicate, but arguably they do in the common definition of the word. The human body is constantly changing cells/most basic atoms. Very few cells are not "replicated" in a lifetime. I've read some arguments where a human body is essentially comprised of all new cells at least every several years, if not sooner. Therefore, there is a lot of replication or duplication even in a human body. Its like the old analogy, you never step in the same river twice, which holds true for the human body as well. It may look the same but it is never the same, not completely. Again, for some odd reason, at the most basic level, atoms are fighting to "survive" but not for individual survival, for they will simply pass on and become some form of other matter, but they will pass on a code to other atoms to continue my existence, at least for awhile. I believe this is best explained via a set of atomic rules/memory/code. How it got there, I don't know, but it makes more sense to me than things simply banging together. And, until science has a better explaination for the formation of RNA, then, this seems as plausible as any, and would in fact, go a long way to explaining a lot of other things.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I')f DNA isn't intelligent, then where does intelligence come from?

[seahorse]

PMS,

That's where you and disagree, by giving up on something and saying "we're in the dark." That's what lead to the dark ages. I believe most problems or questions can be answered given time.

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')However, a more basic question I have is, why do atoms form anything?

[seahorse]

Entropy -

I hear what you are saying, but some of your explaination still begs the question. I'm not concerned about me, my death, etc. I'm not trying to understand why "I" am alive, only using the human body as an example.

Entropy wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey have to. They have no choice in the matter.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')So are you suggesting that the Universe has a date with destiny called 'maximum entropy', matter chaos, or heat death?

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')Entropy wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey have to. They have no choice in the matter.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '
')But is that not based on old science?

Old science that suggested particle/wave duality?

What happens to red and blue shift when we shift our understanding?

[seahorse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever there is enough quantum information/intristic properties "recorded" in atoms, to allow them to become parts of living organisms, as long as environment allows it.