[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReserveGrowthRulz', 'A')t that price point, I imagine there will be alot of screaming, the usual recession, demand destruction, etc etc, whereas when you plan for it, it really isn't that big of deal, lifestyle wise.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eddie_lomax', '
')
So enjoy your new car, I don't know what the solution to peak oil will be, but it sure won't be petrol powered!

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '
')
To sumarise, I don't see RGR's new car as a major problem - right now. He will grow out of it in his own good time (as will everyone else...)

JPL

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReserveGrowthRulz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '
')
To sumarise, I don't see RGR's new car as a major problem - right now. He will grow out of it in his own good time (as will everyone else...)

JPL

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReserveGrowthRulz', '
')As we've all been told, my solution in isolation may mean nothing, the fact that these cars even EXIST is a testament ( a fact often ignored or denied around here ) to what was learned 30 years ago the last time Doomerisms ran rampant, and the reality that they are a 100% improvement in fuel usage over the ride it replaces is often dismissed as "too little, too late", well, I bucked all these relatively simplistic and usually incorrect attitudes and did it anyway.

Acquired a 07 Ford Escape AWD Hybrid, plan on saving the universe, one gallon of gasoline at a time. And when the diesel electric pluggable reaches our shores in the form of a reliable Honda or Toyota in the next couple years, I hereby pledge to keep this particular bloodline of cars in my garage going into the future until, say, at least the kids are in college.

[Frank]

Hey, a vehicle that gets 25 mpg is better than one that gets 15 mpg, right? The trick is to incorporate the efficiency mind-set into everything that you do. There's as much benefit, for example, from combining trips as there is to using the hybrid.

[seahorse]

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any hybrid that has any serious off-road capability. So, I'll wait.

[Last_Laff]

So then, as result there's no peak oil.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Last_Laff', 'S')o then, as result there's no peak oil.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '.') Welcome to Jevons Paradox.

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Frank', 'H')ey, a vehicle that gets 25 mpg is better than one that gets 15 mpg, right? The trick is to incorporate the efficiency mind-set into everything that you do. There's as much benefit, for example, from combining trips as there is to using the hybrid.

[JRP3]

This seems quite relevant to this discussion:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=ne ... com/y9wkd9

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')YNOPSIS: Buying an S.U.V. with fuel economy rated at 16 miles per gallon instead of 14 cuts oil consumption and reduces carbon dioxide emissions by three and a half times more than saving 2 miles per gallon in a typical car.

[grabby]

If you want to by a hybrid then buy a hybrid. If you wnat an electric car, buy one! If you want to buy a Ford 350 truck then buy one.The only danger in a large vehicle is if Algores presidential campaign works you'll get razzed and ostracized because opinion rules.

One purchase over the other will not effect the outcome of our economy or change what is coming. Nor will it even delay it observably. When the trouble starts there will still be lots of gas but justmore pricey. But regardless, the economy will worsen yearly.

Buying a hybrid SUV will not change tohe outcome of our economy. They do sell. People want large luxury cars but don't want the razz.
Buying an hybrid SUV may make a person feel better. They can splurge and drive in comfort without the razz, Kerry can change to hybrid SUV's and he'll be ok politically.

A new hybrid vehicle uses 30,000 dollars or more of tight resources. more production, more building and more output. More lead mining more copper mining more tires and new paint, everything. We do not need one, we want one.
For a snowstorm, use the old Ford F150 4wd pickup. you can get a junked one for a few hundred dollars.

The benefit of a hybrid is you can drive a big, comortable car and still fit in with most green crowds and not risk status, this is important socially especially in parts of hollywood.

For pure environment reasoning, one would want to try to help the environment by buying an old used celica, and fixing up the bad parts, but that isn't comfortable for us. There is a fine balance between social razz and comfort and usefulness.
However we decide though, none of these things will change an iota the coming economic crash of the stock market, and the economic windown.

If one calculates the difference against keeping an old car and driving it less verses buying a new hybrid SUV and then driving it less, you wont make any significant difference.

The hybrid SUV's stated sticker mileage is way higher than real life because percieved savings is what it is all about. The numbers are whats needed, not the truth. People buying a new Hybrid can afford any gas price. Its all in the excuse, and they give it to you. In the '60's they under rated horsepower in the muscle cars so people would buy them.Now they are over rating mileage. Independant tests have shown this.

But youll probably never save 30,000 dollars in gas buying an SUV for the whole life of your vehicle, and if you buy it on a loan with interest it is not a wise choice. We seem to accept always being in debt to someone, when did this reasoning start?

The effect of BUILDING that new car could have been avoided since the savings comparisons results were equivocal. All the people going to work that didnt have to waste gas driving and building it. Supporting the large production base is not what downsizing is about.

When you look at a dollar you are looking at a third of a gallon of gas. When I was a boy a dollar would buy 6 gallons of gas. It is worth 18 times less now. Every dollar you see you should think of it as gasoline saved. I expect before gasoline disappears that a dollar will buy a cup of gas.

By not buying the Hybrid of any kind you can replace your old car and motor parts with rebuild and come out way ahead on fuel savings.
.
this is good. In Russia they even replace their bedsprings with parts they can buy at the local grocery store! Russia will do well.
Gearing up Hybrid manufacturing is not what is needed now. Downsizing efficiency is.

But still it wont change that much so ultimately it won't matter. Let the people have jobs. Isnt going to change that much.
This is not giving up, it is just saying, spend your energy on useful things. Boycotting and not buying things at xmas is the easiest way to impact wastefulness, staying away from wlrus mart and makeing your own card out of construction paper is a way to save several 1/3 gallons of gas. it won't make a difference, but you have more gas in your pocket.

but
we
dont
want to suffer
so
it wont
ever
happen.


PS Hybrid SUV's do not save that much gas, they are over rated. they "gas test them indoors on friction low dynos without wind"
the real mileage is not that much difference from all gas.
But the higher the sticker the more we can explain why we needed it. We don't need hybrids, we need to cut production.

My small gas car will outperform most all Hybrids out there without mining tons of lead for batteries and acid waste etc etc. But it won't make a differance. Staying home would make a bigger difference.

It takes X amount of energy to push Y amount of weight, with resistance of wind force Z. Electric, steam or gas, it will take the same energy to do it. and a hybrid with a large weight and windscreen is more expensive to run than a small gas car saved from the dump and fixed up with rebuilt parts.

If one were to drive a new all electrical cars, it will cost overall the same horsepower than if you just run a small car by gas given a certain weight, size and speed of driving.. electricity is made by coal mostly.

Yes you save gas, now you burn coal. the only advantage is with electric you are burning coal instead of gas and you loose a bit in converting and transmitting, but again it makes no difference. and though you burn more of it, you are saving gas but we're still harming the environment. And the economy will still become trouble.

In Germany some people work for years to buy a Mercedes they cant afford. They are hypnotized because cars determine class there. Mercedes #1 Porsche #2 BMW #3 volkswagen is a toadstool.

It is self perpetuating, people who have been marketed go around telling everyone how good they did so they may influence several more people to do the same thing, whatever useless purchase that was. Humans are like that. They dont want to cut back, they want to be comfortable.

I once knew a lady who bought two dresses because they were on sale. Good excuse. How much sense does that make?
Shouldn't have bought either dress, she was weraing one already.

Some may want to drive cadillacs until they have to walk, it really doesn't matter that much. Nothing will change observably.

So buy a hybrid, That is fine, won't make that much difference.
Convince some other people to buy one, still wont make any difference.
Even say your helping peak oil, and it could be true by microseconds. Then those nine people all bond together, maybe its worth it, living the amrican dream again, and feeling good about something.

But I would suggest you not do this and keep your 30,000 and pay off the house first. Then help those you know pay off their homes while you can.

Keep your old beater, to keep from getting razzed you can always tell them you can't afford a new Hybrid so you run some methanol or you cab run ethanol or biodiesel! This is good for a tight algore crowd so they won't attack you.

So really, buying a hybrid SUV is all about comfort without getting razzed, thats mostly it.
Remember, you can fit in with a Ford 150 pickup if you have the right excuses, (poor and you run ethanol gas) and it will track the deep snow pretty well. Plus you can haul wood later.

No one deserves to be razzed. If you want to drive a FORD 350 4wd truck and need it to haul lumber, people should not be razzed, its a free country, the economy will soon hit difficulty no matter what you buy now. Even after the crash there will be uses for a F-350 once in a while. Like pulling a tree off your house after a wind storm.

There is one interesting factor in all this, it is that if you do buy a Hybrid SUV, you probably do not think there is going to be a significant problem in the economy in the next few years
In fact if you buy anything new now you are in fact probably a cornucopian/ positive outlooking person. Whereas if you buy a used celica chances are you are a bit more worried of coming doom and don't care how people think about you. But agin that even doesn't matter.

Doomers usually drive doomers
and
cornucopians usually drive cornucopians

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', '
')
There is one interesting factor in all this, it is that if you do buy a Hybrid SUV, you probably do not think there is going to be a significant problem in the economy in the next two years

You are what you drive.

[JPL]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReserveGrowthRulz', '
')Why would I think there is a problem in the economy over the next 2 years? We're more than a year post peak and all the BS arm waving dieoff predicted by Doomers still isn't any closer than it was when people started dreaming up this crap back when Ehrlich was writing books about it. And I imagine he was hardly an originator on the "gee the worlds gonna end because I don't like it" concept.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '
')
1) Even in the 21'st century, the majority of the world's population has never (& will never) sit behind the controls of an automobile.

[NEOPO]

We are potentially 1 year post peak production and not really feeling the pain for various reasons.
Reasons that I am sure people like RGR would rather not discuss.

Things might be different if CERA and the rest of the world admitted that we have already peaked or at least that it seems like we have.

The markets are still playing the short term, one day that will change and the effect will be a higher price.
For the most part much of the worlds oil producers are still thinking "this years budget" and one day that to will change.
One day we will know for certain that SA has peaked and these stupid threads aimed at discrediting PO will cease to exist.

Funny as a year ago Reserve growth ruled and there was no peak in sight......
Sorry for feeding the out of work comedians.....

[dhfenton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReserveGrowthRulz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dhfenton', '
')
And how much snow will be on the roads three hours after the storm? Less than an inch.

[mgibbons19]

Interesting for a peaker to argue that we need to rely upon centralized, government run services like road service.

Let the guvmint take care of it.

Good thing that worked for Katrina victims.

Now there are cattle dieing on the plains, ranchers' livelihoods are getting creamed. darn snowplows just aren't doing their jobs.

[FatherOfTwo]

If RGR is of the opinion (and I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth) that we have already passed peak and there are no problems, then I would agree with you that it is a foolish, short sighted position indeed. All one needs to look at is the fact that the majority do not think peak oil has happened. Oil supply is clearly tight, but it has not reached a breaking point yet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', ' ') If you want to assume the position of the loyal opposition, however, rather than the shrill guy in the corner, then I suggest that you begin to make arguments as to why either . . .

1. Peak has not occurred and there will not be a peak any time in the next ____ years, and so this is a non-issue.

2. There will be a substitute, and it is _________.

or

3. Peak has occurred or will soon occur, but the world, and particularly the US, will deal with Coming Off Peak Oil without any major issues, and it will do this by _____________.