[americandream]

I reckon too much of the old godly stuff has set bible dribbling christians and equally nutty koranic muslims on the path to I haven't the fcukkin clue.

Caught in the middle are us marxists waiting for the day when it dawns on you nutbars that only a common system of ownership minus drool inducing shopping mania is really the only sustainable way to run a planet of supposedly sentient beings.

{split from this thread by Shannymara}

[gnm]

Marxist? LOL you crack me up. Yeah look how nice Stalin was to his glorious workers. Hey gotta love that standard of living in China right? What makes you think those in power will stop abusing that power. So whats the commie solution? Give em more power!

-G

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'M')arxist? LOL you crack me up. Yeah look how nice Stalin was to his glorious workers. Hey gotta love that standard of living in China right? What makes you think those in power will stop abusing that power. So whats the commie solution? Give em more power!

-G

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'u')s marxists waiting for the day

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lore', 'S')ince when has true communism ever been practiced, unless it was among some small tribal group?

[Ludi]

Egalitarianism ("communism") works great in small groups. It's well tested in tribal societies.

[smallpoxgirl]

The fundamental problem with Marxism is the whole "dictatorship of the proletariat" concept. The reality is that there never was and never will be a "dictatorship of the proletariat". Every dictatorship is fundamentally the dictatorship of the dictator. Only a self serving prick wants to be dictator, therefore all dictatorships in the end are exploitative.

Indigenous societies are good examples of functioning socialist societies. Marxism, OTOH, has never been anything but a nitemare.

[TheTurtle]

The problem with Marxism is it tried to maintain the dominant paradigm, but under a "different" system of ownership. The problem exists in the very concept of ownership.

communism - as Ludi, Shanny and SPG all said - worked fine for thousands of years among many hunter/gatherer groups. Marxism is inherently flawed, but communism is ideal for small groups.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'E')galitarianism ("communism") works great in small groups. It's well tested in tribal societies.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A')nyway, just look at all those buildings, houses, roads, cars, etc. it's enough to make you gasp! tribal indeed.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'C')aught in the middle are us marxists

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A')nyway, just look at all those buildings, houses, roads, cars, etc. it's enough to make you gasp! tribal indeed.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'P')MS, I didn't intend to imply that ideal was possible at this time.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'E')galitarianism ("communism") works great in small groups. It's well tested in tribal societies.

[Ludi]

I don't really see that as "the opposite of a tribe" as the people are still dependent on each other for security and some trade. There were confederations of tribes.

[PrairieMule]

True,

What I am getting at is yes they are interdependent to some degree but private ownership and accountablity is to one's self instead of a tribe.

Take harvesting a crop for example, the farmer is individually responsible for his own property versus in a tribe where say a group of people in a tribe are assigned to harvest on communal property.

Yet in a defensive situation, like someones house catching on fire. The neighbors rush to their aid. Or even maintaining a road or church.

[Ludi]

Nobody is "assigned" to do specific tasks in a tribe, in general. In general (though it is hard to make generalisations about such diversity), tasks are in common.

Some tribes have/had the concept of personal property, though the land would be in common.

The idea of mutual support and aid is the common thread in tribes: Give Support- Get Support. I see that in your model also, PrairieMule.

Even in non-tribal agrarian societies harvesting would be a common activity, as equipment and manpower could be shared, the people going from one farm to the next to harvest. Same with husking bees, all the community would gather to help husk or thresh each grain crop.

This idea of "every man for himself" is a very modern concept. It's simply not practical in a low-energy way of life.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'N')obody is "assigned" to do specific tasks in a tribe, in general. In general (though it is hard to make generalisations about such diversity), tasks are in common.

Some tribes have/had the concept of personal property, though the land would be in common.

[KhanCEO]

I got this wild idea about a government that owns all the land, buildings, and natural resources. In effect everyone is a renter and the only tax is rent. There is no income taxes or sales taxes. There are limits to one's wealth.

Everyone owns a small business and there are no corporations.

The government has total ownership over the money supply, including banks, credit cards and loans. All debt is loaned on principle, not interest. The principle rates will vary depending the economy.

Every citizen is required to own at least one automatic assault rifle.

Instead of elections there is a vote every 6 months to boot the president from power. The president has the largest salary in the country, second to no one. Presidents are selected by popular vote after a few very long uncensored, unedited, debates. All presidents must be able to pass a basic competence test. All candidates cant take donations, the government most fund serious candidates that are willing to write lengthly essays on why we should elect them. Candidates will be graded on accurateness and merit of their arguments.

Media is totally uncensored.
One person can't own more than one media outlet.
Example: One person can't own 200 different papers and 50 television stations.

All medicine is funded by the government for the benefit of all.
Government owns all hospitals and medical centers.
There are no "sick care" providers.

Government owns production of all war equipment.

Social Security hurts the paychecks of citizens and therefore outlawed.


My question is, What kind of government is this? Really, I got no idea what you would call this thing.

[Ludi]

PrairieMule, Orders are not given by a chief or shaman in a tribe, except under special circumstances, in general. In general, decisions are made by a group, sometimes the entire group, or a group of elders. Chiefs are in general for special circumstances, such as war. There is in general no ruling class. Shaman deal usually in matters of physical and spiritual health, and may have no authority in other circumstances. This confused Europeans very much during the conquest of North America, as a "chief" would meet with the Europeans, a decision would be made, the "chief" would agree to it, and then later the Europeans would find out the dicision made was not in any way binding because the "chief" was merely a special emissary for the moment, and had no real authority.

Don't confuse Tribes with Chiefdoms, which are somewhat different. In Chiefdoms there may be a rulng class or ruling individual.