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Where did all the doomers go?

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby SeasonOfPain » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 01:36:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', 'B')ig Macs come from these animals called cows.

Well... probably about as much of a Big Mac come from a cow as a hot dog comes from a dog. ;)

Anyway, I'm a doomer, and I'm still here. Some people are convinced that one way or another we'll work our way out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into, despite mounds of historical, biological, and evolutionary evidence to the contrary.

We won't.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby PolestaR » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 01:50:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeasonOfPain', 'W')ell... probably about as much of a Big Mac come from a cow as a hot dog comes from a dog. ;)


Yep.. I was thinking the same when I said it.. I just couldn't come up with something better that most people would laugh at. :twisted:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeasonOfPain', 'A')nyway, I'm a doomer, and I'm still here. Some people are convinced that one way or another we'll work our way out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into, despite mounds of historical, biological, and evolutionary evidence to the contrary.

We won't.


Yes, it's easy to live in denial about the state of things. It's hard to think things can be different to how you've always known them, but lack of experience doesn't put more oil in the ground, or water in the dams. Cornucopians are the majority, (maybe not on this board, but in society) just like an IQ of 100 is possessed by the majority.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby PolestaR » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 01:53:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('stungmaster', 'W')ait a minute, I thought the idea of Peak Oil was the availability of cheap and accessible oil? Some appear to be of the opinion that, we'll be chugging along right now as we are then POOF, all oil is gone. I think it's safe to say oil will be around for awhile, but how cheap or plentiful it will be is anyone's guess.

Would it not be logical to assume that things like money and the economy will get tighter before everything falters? Could it not be conceivable that "zombie hordes" could roam before everything goes to hell? Surely there would be enough to pillage for the time being.


Even if oil isn't "completely" available in a collapse a lot of cars will have fuel in them to get them a "few" miles from their origin. I imagine highways will be littered with cars on the side of the road after they have run out of gas.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby Loki » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 02:09:19

I live smack dab in the middle of a large metropolitan area (2 million+ and counting) and I could easily walk to some rich farmland within a day or so. I know what crops are edible, and I know how to prepare them. I am heavily armed and well trained in the use of those arms (Ft. Benning Class of 1991). And I will do what is necessary to survive.

What I see some people doing in this thread is (1) defining the urban masses as the enemy (not necessarily a mistake), and (2) seriously underestimating that enemy (a VERY big mistake). Sun-tzu is shaking his head. Some of you must have studied at the George W. Bush School of Strategery, where underestimating the enemy and assuming the best despite all evidence to the contrary are rules #1 and 2.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby Benzin » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 02:19:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat I see some people doing in this thread is (1) defining the urban masses as the enemy (not necessarily a mistake), and (2) seriously underestimating that enemy (a VERY big mistake). Sun-tzu is shaking his head. Some of you must have studied at the George W. Bush School of Strategery, where underestimating the enemy and assuming the best despite all evidence to the contrary are rules #1 and 2.


I remember someone once said, "best defense against attack is no be there." :lol:

It doesn't matter how much guns and ammo I have, if 500 zombies are sloshing towards me, I am running for the proverbial hills.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby PolestaR » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 02:28:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'I') live smack dab in the middle of a large metropolitan area (2 million+ and counting) and I could easily walk to some rich farmland within a day or so. I know what crops are edible, and I know how to prepare them. I am heavily armed and well trained in the use of those arms (Ft. Benning Class of 1991). And I will do what is necessary to survive.

What I see some people doing in this thread is (1) defining the urban masses as the enemy (not necessarily a mistake), and (2) seriously underestimating that enemy (a VERY big mistake). Sun-tzu is shaking his head. Some of you must have studied at the George W. Bush School of Strategery, where underestimating the enemy and assuming the best despite all evidence to the contrary are rules #1 and 2.


Puhlease.. your rationality and logic is just confusering (sic) us cornucopians.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby TreebeardsUncle » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 02:51:15

Hi. Just did a google search for Detroit ruins. Check out http://www.detroityes.com/industry/02modelt.htm
and others. Should give one an idea of what the landscape will look like post peak.

g
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby Loki » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 04:02:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('johnmarkos', 'H')ey I'm gone too, and I'm an optimist.

It's not just here, either. I've stopped posting on Peak Oil Debunked, too.

At some point, I just realized that the argument (doomer vs. cornucopian) was just not worth having. I don't think there is a good way to talk about peak oil "across the aisle." The premises are so far away that it's like we're speaking a different language.

Too bad -- I learned a lot here. But there were at least points against my continued frequent participation in these forums.

1. I'm an optimist and thus by definition in the (defensive) minority. I just can't carry on like that.
2. I realized that PO is just a small facet of the larger problem (sustainability or ecological footprint).
3. I think these problems need to be approached from a different angle and I'm still trying to figure out what that is.

Maybe I'll post again when I figure out #3, if only to point you all to that essay on my blog once I've written it. :)


Since you've decided not to post here anymore, can you please delete that obnoxious pic of yourself. It comes up on the "Peakoil.com is You!" thing on the sidebar at least once a day. It annoys the hell out of me.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 12:37:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '
')Well like most americans you probably don't know that Big Macs come from these animals called cows. These animal type things are typically on land far from urban centers, land which is cheap and plentiful. You can kill these animals and actually eat them. :lol:

Also grain stockpiles, crops and other various things which make up your Big Mac and fries, Ludi, come from the country. They don't magically regenerate like oil does in the core of the earth in the cornucopian world.


Polestar, you're a scream. You really think these items won't have been sold to the cities long before the Zombie Horde Attack?

You're a hoot, lecturing me about the country.

:-D
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby kochevnik » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 15:54:26

"knowledgeable intellectual" - isn't that a synonym for DUMBASS ???


I left because I started doing things, instead of just yacking about them. I'm doing the opposite of PStarr, I started with machine tools and will be moving on to welding next (already know some of that)

And just so you know - yes - it is true that you're still fucked.

Here's why the Doomers are all gone:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BorneoRagnarok', 'N')o more time to debate endlessly here about the peak oil.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby TheTurtle » Fri 08 Dec 2006, 17:21:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'A')nd just so you know - yes - it is true that you're still fucked.


Welcome back, kochevnik.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Polestar, you're a scream. You really think these items won't have been sold to the cities long before the Zombie Horde Attack?

You're a hoot, lecturing me about the country.

:-D


And calling me a cornucopian. :lol:

Next thing you know, he'll accuse Raphael of writing too tersely. :P
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby PolestaR » Sat 09 Dec 2006, 00:36:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'A')nd calling me a cornucopian. :lol:

Next thing you know, he'll accuse Raphael of writing too tersely. :P


Hey if it lives in denial like a cornucopian, dreams like a cornucopian, it usually is... a cornucopian. :roll:
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sat 09 Dec 2006, 10:06:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'A')nd calling me a cornucopian. :lol:


Hey, if it lives in denial like a cornucopian, dreams like a cornucopian, it usually is... a cornucopian. :roll:


I am forced to ask, what exactly have I ever written in these forums that makes it look like I am "in denial" or that I "dream like a cornucopian"?

Is this all based on my notion that it might be better to make a deal with ones neighbor to help maintain and protect the post-collapse garden in exchange for sharing food with him, rather than driving him off at gun point? I recall that upset you.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 09 Dec 2006, 13:01:43

TheTurtle, I know of at least one of your plans in the event of Bad Stuff, and I'd say you're about as far from a cornucopian as a person can get.

But I get the impression Polestar hasn't read much of what either of us has posted here...
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby PolestaR » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 02:21:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'I') am forced to ask, what exactly have I ever written in these forums that makes it look like I am "in denial" or that I "dream like a cornucopian"?


I'm sorry that you might think me calling you a cornucopian makes you believe you are like some others here. It is a scale and you certainly are near the end of it. However anyone who refuses to accept the reality that things might turn out really bad is living in denial. It is a dream you have that things will turn out in a way which will allow your current situation to keep you alive. I can't predict the future, nor can you. So I find it ridiculous that someone can tell me "xxx doesn't fit - even into my most pessimistic plans" , especially when "XXX" is the most respected plan for dealing with hordes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'I')s this all based on my notion that it might be better to make a deal with ones neighbor to help maintain and protect the post-collapse garden in exchange for sharing food with him, rather than driving him off at gun point? I recall that upset you.


Not quite sure what you are talking about. I think dealing with your neighbours can be a good plan if all of them are like yourself (by which I mean if you're like myself, I don't know you well enough to comment). In essence it would be like a commune just with everyone having their own "land" , and as long as everyone treated each other like family (unlikely) then it won't present many problems.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby jupiters_release » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 04:10:03

Polestar,

I agree with you on how ugly TSHTF will be, but do you really wanna live in isolation?
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby PolestaR » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 04:30:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jupiters_release', 'P')olestar,

I agree with you on how ugly TSHTF will be, but do you really wanna live in isolation?


I don't want to live in isolation, but I guess living with 20-30 people would be isolating to some. It's best to live that way until most people are dead I feel.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 11:26:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', 'I')'m sorry that you might think me calling you a cornucopian makes you believe you are like some others here. It is a scale and you certainly are near the end of it. However anyone who refuses to accept the reality that things might turn out really bad is living in denial. It is a dream you have that things will turn out in a way which will allow your current situation to keep you alive. I can't predict the future, nor can you. So I find it ridiculous that someone can tell me "xxx doesn't fit - even into my most pessimistic plans" , especially when "XXX" is the most respected plan for dealing with hordes.


See, as Ludi suggested, you really haven't read much of what she and I have written over the past couple of years.

To summarize my basic TEOTWAWKI philosophy: I think life as we know it is doomed. I think we will go through the next 5 years with a gradual disintegration of the western lifestyle and then everything will collapse into total Mad Max chaos. I think there will be large-scale rape, murder and cannibalism within the coming decade. I am willing to admit that my time-frame may be off in either direction, but I have no doubt that dark ages are ahead of us within my lifetime (and, remember, I statistically have fewer decades ahead of me than I have already lived).

As for my opinion of retreats, I view them as little more than the survialist's chimera ... the place to make one's last stand. But hey, last stands are just that, you hold off the hordes and then you die. 8O My post-apocalypse reality is informed by the Indian Wars in 19th century United States. The Lakota had their retreats ... their "safe-havens". They would go there and they would set up camp and they would wake one morning to find their camp surrounded by the US Army who would then mow them down with Gatling guns. No, the Turtle Tribe will not flee to a retreat. The Turtle Tribe draws its inspiration from the Apache under Geronimo who, along with 35 warriors and over 100 non-combatants, kept most of the Mexican Army and over a quarter of US Army tied up for years. They did this by blending into the wilderness and living as nomadic hunter-gatherers.

My worst-case plan is for the Turtle Tribe to simply blend quietly into the wildnerness areas of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas, where we will live as nomadic hunter-gatherers (and I don't plan to wage war on anyone, so we should have it easier than Geronimo had it :lol: ). We have not yet reached the point where we can walk into the woods with nothing but the clothes we are wearing, but we are working in that direction.

I am also realistic enough to recognize that I and mine could just as easily be part of the massive die-off to come. There are no guarantees.

So please, just because I now spend my time on these boards suggesting that we should all treat each other nicely, don't think I can't see what is down the road. And please, don't call me a cornucopian ever again - I spit on both biofuels and fusion. :-D

And I also think that Peak Oil is the least of the problems which lie ahead of us. 8O

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', 'I') don't want to live in isolation, but I guess living with 20-30 people would be isolating to some. It's best to live that way until most people are dead I feel.


Hey! That's exactly how I feel. :-D
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 13:43:36

I concur with your plan, TheTurtle. Other like minds have similar plans as the only likely successful way of surviving under the worst circumstances.

See you in the woods.
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Re: Where did all the doomers go?

Unread postby MD » Sun 10 Dec 2006, 15:15:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '.')..
See you in the woods.


I am ready to cope with that, maybe even thrive with that.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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