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THE Humanity's Flaws Thread (merged)

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

What is the greatest flaw in human nature?

Poll ended at Tue 07 Mar 2006, 03:55:19

the inability to understand the exponential function (as Albert Bartlett argued)
1
No votes
the inability to plan ahead, think far into the future
7
No votes
plain laziness
4
No votes
slow to adapt to new ideas
1
No votes
the inability to see the big picture and how it affects the small picture
11
No votes
there is no flaw in human nature
6
No votes
My answer is not fully represented by any of the above. See my reply.
8
No votes
mmmm, I like soft pillows
7
No votes
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby MD » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 05:20:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '.')..
Our brains are lazy guessing engines.


,that are brilliantly accurate, on occasion.

That we can, on occasion, untangle our own web of bias enough to see clearly is remarkable.
Last edited by MD on Tue 05 Dec 2006, 05:31:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby ohanian » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 05:24:39

I am right bias
A firm belief that I am right and all those who disagree with me are completely wrong.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby MD » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 05:49:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', '.')..
A firm belief that I am right and all those who disagree with me are completely wrong.


Of course we all believe we are right. If we didn't believe we were right, and continued to behave as though we did, that would resemble insanity, would it not? (forced compliance an exception)

A mature thinking adult will recognize that their own position is a culmination of bias, experience, culture, education, and genetics.
Once recognized, opposing views become much less threatening, and much more interesting, IMO.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby firestarter » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 12:09:22

I prefer Spencer's shorthand dictum: the masses are asses.
Schopenhauer's view that human beings are a minority sub species of Homo sapiens, thus producing necessary misanthropy is a close second.

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Attempting to force "education" (scarcrow faux intelligence) on mass man, so as to effect cognitive competence is as incongruous as putting a Rolex on a pig.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 14:17:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'L')ist of some important cognitive biases:

Bandwagon effect - the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same.

Confirmation bias - the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.

Illusion of control - the tendency for human beings to believe they can control or at least influence outcomes which they clearly cannot.

Overconfidence effect - the tendency to overestimate one's own abilities.

Optimism bias - the systematic tendency to be over-optimistic about the outcome of planned actions.

Ingroup bias - preferential treatment people give to whom they perceive to be members of their own groups.

Just-world phenomenon - the tendency for people to believe that the world is "just" and therefore people "get what they deserve."

Projection bias - the tendency to unconsciously assume that others share the same or similar thoughts, beliefs, values, or positions.

Self-serving bias - the tendency to claim more responsibility for successes than failures.

And the most important bias of all that keeps all other biases running smoothly is:

Bias blind spot - the tendency not to recognise one's own cognitive biases.


Each and everyone one of those is a major evolutionary success for the individual that practices the bias.

Bandwagon Bias...sounds a lot like Safety In Numbers to me.

Self-Serving Bias...shouldn't we try to maximize profit and minimize losses? There is no other way for an individual to get ahead if everyone else follows that paradigm.

Projection Bias...I'm right because I can't be wrong for long periods of time. Surely others are trying to be more right like me. There exists an impersonal "correctness". I am close to it and thus others must be close to it to. This isn't a flaw.

Overconfidence Bias...If we didn't think we could succeed, we would never try. Do you really want to live in a world without confidence? Do you think anyone would have tried taming a wild animal without confidence?

Ingroup Bias...People who look/act/feel like me are probably close genetic relatives. We should work together for the better of our genes, no?

I could continue but I think you understand my basic position. All of these percieved flaws are simply the product of millions of years of careful evolution.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby AgentR » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 14:26:15

Confirmation, Bandwagon, and Ingroup

Most primates seek out like minded&bodied primates to associate with. In the less evolved primates, the outliers and misfits are simply killed; in humans we shun and banish instead; but its the same dynamic. Followers, leaders, and would be leaders who would challenge and fail.

Not a flaw, just a natural survival strategy that takes the guidance of leader(s), and matches it to the sustainability of the clan.

Illusion of control, and the rest

Are all psychological adaptations that allow the very limited, but sentient intellect of the human mind cope with living in a world that vastly exceeds any individual's ability to understand.

Outliers and misfits may not have these, and most will fail without harming the clan, but the ones that are successful in some way bring advancement of one type or another back to the clan. Even if the clan quickly moves to kill or shun the outlier as a result.

I prefer to be the outlier, seeking out lefty political groups to annoy, wandering the realms where few if any think like I do and believe what I believe. I'm distinctly aware of my own failures, limitations and strengths, and I am profoundly aware that the world couldn't give a flip whether I live, suffer, or die. Justice is an illusion for us, only the mind of God is adequate to the challenge of being Just.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby firestarter » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 14:35:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'L')ist of some important cognitive biases:

Bandwagon effect - the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same.

Confirmation bias - the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.

Illusion of control - the tendency for human beings to believe they can control or at least influence outcomes which they clearly cannot.

Overconfidence effect - the tendency to overestimate one's own abilities.


Optimism bias - the systematic tendency to be over-optimistic about the outcome of planned actions.

Ingroup bias - preferential treatment people give to whom they perceive to be members of their own groups.

Just-world phenomenon - the tendency for people to believe that the world is "just" and therefore people "get what they deserve."

Projection bias - the tendency to unconsciously assume that others share the same or similar thoughts, beliefs, values, or positions.

Self-serving bias - the tendency to claim more responsibility for successes than failures.

And the most important bias of all that keeps all other biases running smoothly is:

Bias blind spot - the tendency not to recognise one's own cognitive biases.










Psychobabbling claptrap.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby AgentR » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 14:42:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'P')sychobabbling claptrap.


But enjoyable none the less.
Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby NEOPO » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 14:46:22

I know you are but what am I? 8)
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby Ayame » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 15:57:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')I could continue but I think you understand my basic position. All of these percieved flaws are simply the product of millions of years of careful evolution.


Indeed the biases were obviously favoured by evolution else they wouldn't exist so they must on the whole offer more success than failure. But nonetheless sometimes these biases can make a real ass out of a person/group or cause much suffering.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 17:23:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '
')Psychobabbling claptrap.


This would fall under:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bias blind spot - the tendency not to recognise one's own cognitive biases.


I think that cognitive biases are very real. I do not think that the people who discovered these biases simply made them up.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby MD » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 17:56:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '
')Psychobabbling claptrap.


This would fall under:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bias blind spot - the tendency not to recognise one's own cognitive biases.


I think that cognitive biases are very real. I do not think that the people who discovered these biases simply made them up.


The recognition of one's own bias is key to the ability to make effective decisions. After all, if you can't see your bias, you can't make allowance for it.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 18:41:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '
')Indeed the biases were obviously favoured by evolution else they wouldn't exist so they must on the whole offer more success than failure.


Not necessarily; they may be genetic noise - a bit of evolutionary detritus which is neither helpful nor especially hurtful in the big scheme of things. It's not accurate to assume evolution is "careful," evolution is rather messy.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby Lighthouse » Tue 05 Dec 2006, 18:59:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '.').. but what am I? 8)


I don't think you wanna know... :roll:
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 06 Dec 2006, 00:03:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '
')Indeed the biases were obviously favoured by evolution else they wouldn't exist so they must on the whole offer more success than failure.


Not necessarily; they may be genetic noise - a bit of evolutionary detritus which is neither helpful nor especially hurtful in the big scheme of things. It's not accurate to assume evolution is "careful," evolution is rather messy.


I think the core of all these biases is simple: bias by definition is self-serving.

Cognition arose from simpler biological and sensory processes. Without bias, there probably would be no cognition at all. The problem is that bias interferes with cognition's ability to grasp "truth".

I agree with the hypothesis that cognitive bias is a problem, I disagree that for sufficiently intelligent people that it can't be overcome. Kids should be taught to think around cognitive biases... but they aren't. Just like they're not taught logic.

Kids aren't taught shit, and this is the reason for the perception that humans are cognitively flawed...
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby Zardoz » Wed 06 Dec 2006, 03:57:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '[')b]Bandwagon effect - the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same.

Confirmation bias - the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.

Illusion of control - the tendency for human beings to believe they can control or at least influence outcomes which they clearly cannot.

Overconfidence effect - the tendency to overestimate one's own abilities.

Optimism bias - the systematic tendency to be over-optimistic about the outcome of planned actions.

Ingroup bias - preferential treatment people give to whom they perceive to be members of their own groups.

Just-world phenomenon - the tendency for people to believe that the world is "just" and therefore people "get what they deserve."

Projection bias - the tendency to unconsciously assume that others share the same or similar thoughts, beliefs, values, or positions.

Self-serving bias - the tendency to claim more responsibility for successes than failures.

Bias blind spot - the tendency not to recognise one's own cognitive biases.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'P')sychobabbling claptrap.

Not hardly. The Bush administration was guilty of (or victim of) just about every one on those biases in the runup to the invasion of Iraq. It's uncanny. That list is like a psychological profile of BushCo.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby Ayame » Wed 06 Dec 2006, 04:24:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')Not necessarily; they may be genetic noise - a bit of evolutionary detritus which is neither helpful nor especially hurtful in the big scheme of things. It's not accurate to assume evolution is "careful," evolution is rather messy.


Surely if it was just genetic noise then there would be variation amongst human populations.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby MD » Wed 06 Dec 2006, 05:40:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '.').... Without bias, there probably would be no cognition at all.....


Excellent point, and so typical of the dichotomy of life that a source of cognition also exists as a barrier to truth
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 06 Dec 2006, 06:05:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '.').... Without bias, there probably would be no cognition at all.....


Excellent point, and so typical of the dichotomy of life that a source of cognition also exists as a barrier to truth


Now hold up.

I assume "truth" is independent of cognition. The barrier is cognitive bias.

What is the "dichotomy"? The struggle of positive and negative?

The dichotomy is that there are things "known" and things unknown... and in between are the doors (cognition) and the wrong doors (cognitive bias).

Somewhere in there is also the "Twilight Zone".... :lol:

I think its not an insurmountable problem if it can be overcome with cognition itself. I guess you would be well served to replace the drive the cognitive bias fills, with the alternative, which would be an altruistic curiosity of some type.

For example, all you have to do is show how to recognize bias and how to combat it (verbally). Very much like propositional logic.
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Re: Humans are cognitively flawed

Unread postby MD » Wed 06 Dec 2006, 06:10:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '.').... Without bias, there probably would be no cognition at all.....


Excellent point, and so typical of the dichotomy of life that a source of cognition also exists as a barrier to truth


Now hold up.

I assume "truth" is independent of cognition. The barrier is cognitive bias.

What is the "dichotomy"? The struggle of positive and negative?

The dichotomy is that there are things "known" and things unknown... and in between are the doors (cognition) and the wrong doors (cognitive bias).

Somewhere in there is also the "Twilight Zone".... :lol:

I think its not an insurmountable problem if it can be overcome with cognition itself. I guess you would be well served to replace the drive the cognitive bias fills, with the alternative, which would be an altruistic curiosity of some type.

For example, all you have to do is show how to recognize bias and how to combat it (verbally). Very much like propositional logic.


my "barrier to truth" implied "cognitive bias", or so I thought. Thanks for the clarification, you make my point very well.
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