By taking all the carbon that we can find out of the ground and pumping it in to the atmosphere, at the same time laying waste to the carbon sponges (forests), the human species makes an excellent case study in ecological succession.
There is no equilibrium in nature, and what ecologists use to call "climax ecosystems," they have decided are nothing more than transitory states. Thus the whole idea of "sustainable society" is more accurately classified as an eco-utopian ideal. The history and future of our species can more realistically be described as a continuous population bloom and die-off based on carrying capacity constraints (just like all the other species, maybe we're not so unique after all?)
The position we're in now is not unique or uncommon. Only impressive because of its global scale. We have been so successful at reproducing and eliminating competitors and usurping their carrying capacity, that we have completely upset the conditions that made us successful to begin with. Classic late stage ecological succession of a dominant species (followed closely by die-off).
We should feel confident in classifying our industrial civilization as one of the most successful failures in biological history.
These ecological principles make up a gaping blind spot in the fractured mindset of the cornucopian. I have yet to see a cornucopian base any of their arguments on biology or ecology. If I can find one, and they can make any sense I will abandon my doomerism at once. I challenge any of the "peakoildebunked" crowd (you know who you are) to make an ecological case as to why we aren't headed towards towards a die-off?
PeakOil is You
Challenge to the "peakoildebunked" crowd, bring it
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Challenge to the "peakoildebunked" crowd, bring it
by seldom_seen » Sat 18 Nov 2006, 05:53:14
But how the world turns. One day, cock of the walk. Next, a feather duster.
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Re: Challenge to the "peakoildebunked" crowd, brin
by bobcousins » Sat 18 Nov 2006, 07:33:08
What I am wondering is how does a species know when to die-off? Is there an ecological police that comes along and says "you have exceeded your carrying capacity. You must die-off now"?
It's all downhill from here
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Re: Challenge to the "peakoildebunked" crowd, brin
by MD » Sat 18 Nov 2006, 07:38:29
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'I')s there an ecological police that comes along and says "you have exceeded your carrying capacity. You must die-off now"?
Sure, they exist in the form of planetary systems that will kick our ass when we get out of line.
We are getting way out of line.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Challenge to the "peakoildebunked" crowd, brin
by bobcousins » Sat 18 Nov 2006, 08:24:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'I')s there an ecological police that comes along and says "you have exceeded your carrying capacity. You must die-off now"?
Sure, they exist in the form of planetary systems that will kick our ass when we get out of line.
We are getting way out of line.
"Out of line" is an anthropomorphism. Is that an ecological supposition? In reality the planet neither knows nor cares.
My point is it's the reality on the ground that will decide, you can't make a determination based on theory. While we can grow sufficient food for the population, we are by definition within carrying capacity. If there becomes a time when we can't grow enough food, then by definition we have exceeded carrying capacity (and die-off will occur).
But it's our ability to grow food that decides the issue, not the judgement of the Planetary Systems Police.
It's all downhill from here
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Re: Challenge to the "peakoildebunked" crowd, brin
by MD » Sat 18 Nov 2006, 09:41:09
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'I')s there an ecological police that comes along and says "you have exceeded your carrying capacity. You must die-off now"?
Sure, they exist in the form of planetary systems that will kick our ass when we get out of line.
We are getting way out of line.
"Out of line" is an anthropomorphism. Is that an ecological supposition? In reality the planet neither knows nor cares.
My point is it's the reality on the ground that will decide, you can't make a determination based on theory. While we can grow sufficient food for the population, we are by definition within carrying capacity. If there becomes a time when we can't grow enough food, then by definition we have exceeded carrying capacity (and die-off will occur).
But it's our ability to grow food that decides the issue, not the judgement of the Planetary Systems Police.
It's both system limits(PSP, I suppose) and our ability to manipulate outcomes within those limits.
We are approaching multiple system boundaries right now, any one of which will severly impact our ability to produce. Those on the ground better be prepared to stretch their boundaries, if we are to maintain any hope of stability.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
