[MD]

At the core is the often asked question "please show me evidence of this god thing".

There is no material evidence to be had, therefore God discussions are either rational or irrational speculation.

This irritates the hell out of the Hard Scientist as nothing can be nailed down. At every attempt to define, the construct squirms away. His only escape is to retreat back to "please show me...."

If you ask the scientist "is there anything to reality beyond what we can currently evidence?”. I doubt you would get a firm "no" from many.

Most will agree there is more; from there it is just a matter of degree. The Scientist, true to his Cause, will continue to speculate carefully, methodically, gathering new evidence bit by bit. This is A Good Thing(TM).

The Religionist builds his Slippery Construct of speculation, usually designed to steer culture, with widely varied result. This is not such A Good Thing(TM)

The Spiritualist seeks to know the reality outside material evidence. Very many find such personal snippets of evidence, but unfortunately the first thing most tend to do with such discovery run off and start or join a Religion. This again is not such A Good Thing(TM).

Personally I have experienced a nice collection "non material evidentiary snippets" over the course of my life. As a result I have cycled through all three of the above, repeatedly.

I finally settled on my own speculative reality some time back. It’s the one described by Jesus in the gospels. The reality where the Servant is the Master. I am on a journey to the place where He is. The skills I practice, as I make my way, are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Those are the skills that are valued in that place, the place where I am headed. Are you headed that way too? Great! The more the merrier.

Go ahead now and trot out your logical constructs or your straw man armies. Especially fun are the Christian Caricatures, the church is ripe with possibilties there.

Forgive me for not participating, but I experienced Philosophy ad nauseum years ago.

thanks to Martha(TM)

[Ludi]

Make's sense to me, MD. To a large extent, debates about beliefs are just silly. I don't have a problem with discussions of beliefs, though. Often helps me think things through.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
')..... How do you handle scarcity? .....

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his irritates the hell out of the Hard Scientist as nothing can be nailed down. At every attempt to define, the construct squirms away. His only escape is to retreat back to "please show me...."

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
')..... How do you handle scarcity? .....

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', 'I')nstinct that has gone unused for the last 2-3 generations. I believe we can reattain this instinct quicker than most will give credit for.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'A')t the core is the often asked question "please show me evidence of this god thing".

There is no material evidence to be had, therefore God discussions are either rational or irrational speculation.

...thanks to Martha(TM)

Goo dheavens guys... shorten your links -UE

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '
')This problem was addressed by Jesus himself when He said :

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '.').....How can you follow such teachings with a whole heart? Credo quia absurdum indeed.......

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '.').....How can you follow such teachings with a whole heart? Credo quia absurdum indeed.......

[DesertBear2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', ' ')Love your neighbor as yourself, profound.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesertBear2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', ' ')Love your neighbor as yourself, profound.

[PenultimateManStanding]

DesertBear: what is your take on the ethical evolution that Christianity tried to enact? History is complex and full of blood. Look what happened to Germany, a Christian Nation that threw off the teachings of Jesus. Look at the world of the Romans, bloodthirsty tyrants who entertained the crowds with bloody festivals. My feelings are that we should hold on to the Christian Heritage. But something tells me that we won't. That's the problem as I see it, we know now that we are just a product of a brutal evolutionary history. The ethical answers of the past don't ring true because they weren't based in reality. But we have nothing then to keep us from savagery. Do you see what I'm saying? we're in a bind.

[MD]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'D')esertBear: what is your take on the ethical evolution that Christianity tried to enact? History is complex and full of blood. Look what happened to Germany, a Christian Nation that threw off the teachings of Jesus. Look at the world of the Romans, bloodthirsty tyrants who entertained the crowds with bloody festivals. My feelings are that we should hold on to the Christian Heritage. But something tells me that we won't. That's the problem as I see it, we know now that we are just a product of a brutal evolutionary history. The ethical answers of the past don't ring true because they weren't based in reality. But we have nothing then to keep us from savagery. Do you see what I'm saying? we're in a bind.

[MD]

Criminalization of Christianity on the way?

[DesertBear2]

I would like to apologize if my above commentary seems inflammatory. Not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings...

My own take on religion has changed greatly in the last 10 years or so. Even just 5 years ago, you would have found me defending religious freedom for everyone. At one point, I have openly defended David Koresh and his right to operate an insane religious cult. The experiences of the last 10 years that have shaped my own change in outlook include association with conservative Christian homeschooling groups- and also several years of association with the Unitarian Universalists and their model of politically correct religion.

However, I have done a 180 degree turn around as the US religious right and some conservative Catholics have used the Christian religion to justify every type of evil and malicious behavior- much of which is a direct threat to the open society that we all value so much.

This branch of Christianity just appears to have metamorphosed into an insane and malignant philosophy that is at odds with the modern world- the obsession with sexual issues, agressive nationalism combined with religious devotion, the increased promotion of war and military action, an outright hostility to an assignment of any value to other species or basic sensible environmental policy, a crazy support for all things corporate or fundamentalist free market. And they are organized like a military force to grab the levers of US power and incorporate these primitive beliefs into US law- if not the Constitution itself.

I feel it is time to stop giving a free ride to the damaging religiosity of this group and to start subjecting their beliefs to the rules of evidence. We also need to incorporate the new and fascinating information coming from cultural and archaeological studies of the holy lands.

[PenultimateManStanding]

God loves you too.