[SDC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '
')You mean... gulp... we have to save ourselves?

[Zardoz]

What we may be witnessing is a "military coup", American style. Nothing overt, nothing really confrontational, and absolutely nothing threatening or violent.

Instead, it may be taking the form of a low-key, slow-motion sort of mutiny.

The object would be only to make a major change of course and effect serious revisions of policy. The "mutiny" influences rather than threatens. It sends clear messages without saying or doing anything that anybody could interpret as insubordinate or, heaven forbid, treasonous.

Nevertheless, it would get the desired results.

[TheDude]

So what's so bad about Keating or Cartwright? I was hearing how the military is rife with what for the sake of discussion I'll refer to as "sky pilots," is that it? Searches on the web don't immediately bring up the kind of Be Afraid! type sites.
Not that it's a solution I'm hoping for.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')umsfeld is doing exactly what the President wants him to do.

[Dreamtwister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', 't')he vast majority of the american people support this government

[NEOPO]

Funny stuff aye dude

We change nothing until we again control the money
NUH NUH NUH NUH NOTHING!

Agentpink - pffft.....ah yes a coup could occur here....fear is your only god
_________________

Then this from SDC
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') hope you're not talking about a violent revolution. That wouldn't work, the vast majority of the american people support this government, and for a violent revolution you need most of the people. Any "American Bolsheviks" would only achieve getting killed.

[gg3]

Yo, guys & gals, cool it. First of all, this is not a military coup or anything close to it. The military are not attempting to directly take civilian power.

Technically this is more like a mutiny: organized opposition to the chain of command. Strictly speaking, a mutiny involves organized refusal to follow orders, and this is certainly not that (yet). But the element of organized dissent is certainly present.

This is truly unprecedented and enormous. The fact that this editorial appears in the papers of all four branches of the armed forces, says that their senior officers have reached a consensus of opinion on this issue. This is a tsunami, make no mistake about it.

And it is aimed directly at Bush and Cheney. The literal words ask the President, politely, to fire his secretary of defense. But the implied meaning, particularly given the timing relative to the election, is that it is now time to consign this Administration to lame-duck status. The generals of course can't come out and say that directly; traditionally, when one loses faith in the chain of command i.e. the C-in-C, the proper thing to do is resign one's commission and retire from the armed forces. What they are doing instead, is staying put and digging in for a fight.

It is aimed at Bush & Cheney because of the timing: coming out the day before the election, it says to the families and friends of all of those who serve, that they must do their duty and go to the polls and vote for candidates who will demand accountability. At least this part is in keeping with tradition: warriors influencing policy by calling upon their loved ones to stand up and vote for change.

A brief bit of history is in order. Rumsfeld's reliance on the idea of a hig-tech army has a long history: search "the seduction of air power" or similar phrases and read what you find. Ever since the early 20th century, there has been a subculture of military theory that holds that technology alone can win wars. Traditionally this has referred to air power, including aircraft carriers. Today it also refers to advanced munitions and ordnance systems.

The underlying impulse is inherently benign: to minimize casualties to one's own forces and to civilians. But the facts, time and time again throughout the last century, demonstrate that wars are not won by machines but by boots on the ground. Air power and high tech at best can make the job on the ground easier and faster. This is good, but it is not sufficient.

Rumsfeld got seduced by the theory and as a result we are now stuck in a quagmire with a loss that cannot be salvaged. Clearly he needs to go, just as any manager who mismanages a company into bankruptcy needs to go.

But the moral responsibility, as well as ultimate legal responsibility, rests with the C-in-C. Supreme authority carries supreme responsibility: the buck must necessarily stop on the President's desk.

And for those who don't think we can get change via peaceful means, consider this:

On Tuesday we are likely to see a Democrat sweep of the House and possibly also a Democrat majority elected in the Senate. The House has the authority to conduct far-reaching investigations, and it will do so. These investigations are what the Admin fears most, because as the truth comes out, the demands for accountability will rise. At minimum we will have a lame-duck Admin tied down by Congress, at most an impeachment and possibly criminal trials for specific offenses.

If this election proceeds without massive fraud, it will be proof positive that the system still works.

We will know the answer in just a few days.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '.')..If this election proceeds without massive fraud...

[PenultimateManStanding]

The military angry at Bush, the neocons all saying Bush is a screw up, incompetent. Some of the conservative websites like National Review saying Bush is a screw up. Buchanan saying he's a screw up. I'd say, yeah, it's probably time for Rumsfeld to go. But it isn't going to happen. Look at this face. Look at the presidential jaw that has stubborn written on it. Look at it and you know that Rumsfeld isn't going anywhere.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'O')n Tuesday we are likely to see a Democrat sweep of the House and possibly also a Democrat majority elected in the Senate. The House has the authority to conduct far-reaching investigations, and it will do so. These investigations are what the Admin fears most, because as the truth comes out, the demands for accountability will rise. At minimum we will have a lame-duck Admin tied down by Congress, at most an impeachment and possibly criminal trials for specific offenses.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'I')t has been said Rumsfeld has previously offered to resign on more than one occasion, but 'stay the course' GWB won't accept that.

[TheDude]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'U')nfortunately for our side, I think Pelosi is smart enough to see the trap; I'd suspect she'll take the tack of throwing lots of chum for the masses, things like minimum wage hikes, tax hikes for the "wealthy", small farm "protection".

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'U')nfortunately for our side, I think Pelosi is smart enough to see the trap.

[NEOPO]

republican my ass!!

Yer a neocon and you know it!!

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'r')epublican my ass!!
Yer a neocon and you know it!!

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I') admire your determination here "R" and I won't go as far as I could because we do need to embrace diversity. It seems clear that your reasons for being here have little to do with peak oil. That's ok.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I') admire your determination here "R" and I won't go as far as I could because we do need to embrace diversity. It seems clear that your reasons for being here have little to do with peak oil. That's ok.

[NEOPO]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I') admire your determination here "R" and I won't go as far as I could because we do need to embrace diversity. It seems clear that your reasons for being here have little to do with peak oil. That's ok.

[AgentR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'a')hahahahahah bwahahahahah

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'a')hahahahahah bwahahahahah

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')ahahahahahah bwahahahahah