[Mesuge]

Fergus> reality check -> illegal immigrants make up at least 45% of the US agro business labor force, this has been even openly acknowledged by the agro business and their lobby in the DC. The open border is a policy by corporate design..

[Fergus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jeezlouise', 'I') don't recall calling you anything, Fergus, or flaming you at all. I just wanted to have a rational discourse on the tenets of civil liberty, not a emotional rant contest. And why do you bring up Cindy Sheehan in every single one of your posts lately? Is she your personal voodoo doll for all of your fear and rage? She protests the war in a very public way and all of a sudden she's an America-hater. I am so sick of that cop-out. Show me how she's aligned with Al Qaeda. Lay it out. No true patriot would ever suggest that a fellow citizen needs a bullet in the head for exercising their constitutionally guaranteed (and therefore God-given) right to free speech. For shame. Take her to task on what she says, not the disagreement itself. Why do we all of a sudden have to blindly support everything our government does in a time of war? Trust is earned, and can be broken. No matter how we may wish it to not be so or how much we ignore it, the sitting government has broken the public trust. The people now in power hold no allegiance to this country or anything it used to stand for.

[Mesuge]

In all respect I just don't see the link between anti-americanism and protesting against illegal and immoral war. To question authorities because of their wrongfull or criminal conduct is the real american asset, which rightfully inspired many parts of the world, although I'm not saying that this particular lady, Mrs. Sheehen is the best for such a role..

If you have not seen it yet get the PBS Now episode where Powell's longlife buddy and chief of staff with tears in eyes sais it laud and clear. That concering the infamous UN WMDs in Iraq presentation that they had participated in a lie and hoax on the american people.

On the immigration issue, yes you are right the law should be implemented fully but as I tried to demonstrate to you on the agro business example some folks are above the law, the MNCs or various powerfull industrial lobbies and that's the reality of the US system and to various degree all around the world..

So, you might better channel your energy to some reform conservative movement which are many in the US nowadays and most of them are pro constitution and against the corporate-neocon-Bush junta which is literally sucking the last blood of true americanism out of the country and tearing the constitution to pieces..

The ruling elite is in fact not american or anti-american or left or right it's just an elite on the last sucking wealth spree before the full effects of peak oil will materialize and from then on it would be everybody on his own..

[coyote]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fergus', 'I') get angry when I see a flag burnt by punks that have no idea what that stands for, have no idea who bought their freedom to think the way they do.

[NEOPO]

[Keith_McClary]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fergus', '
')For Mesuge, does that make it right? Illegal is illegal and you can look at any country in the world, nobody wants em anymore. I m just tired of 'wwell its always been that way, so its ok'. No Its not ok, Its still illegal. the rapist that was not causght till after his statute ran out, does that excuse his crime or make the rape any less real or validate his actions. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. They are hurting America by their very presence. Nothing about them is ok.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') believe the current economy of scale has rendered protesting and peaceful political action inert. We've passed some population/information/saturation threshold of overshoot that has paralyzed our ability to effect changes on a macroscopic level. The leverage points that exist in our system are so radicalized that touching them will get you put in jail... or worse.

[jdumars]

I believe we have passed a tipping point in the human ability to effect change... there have never been this many people on the planet, so anything we have seen in history cannot accurately reflect what is happening right now. Growth changes things unalterably, and people tend to downplay or discount that -- foolishly I might add. No two things are identical. It's only human systems that strive so hard to make that the "truth" regardless of its inanity. Everything is arbitrary. Everything is an approximation. Everything is uncertain.