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Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 00:35:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'S')o basically we should follow the government or official line ahead of what our own senses or research on the subject shows? That is critical thinking???


I wasn't there, so my senses are useless.
All sources of research are at best second and third hand.
All available sources have been redacted to one extent or another by their producers.

Basically, it falls into the category of "unknowable". For items in this category, a government report has a slight edge over a "privately researched" report. Not huge. But a working advantage, and enjoys presumptive acceptance. Not a designation of TRUTH, but simple usefulness and acceptability.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby ClubOfRomeII » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 00:38:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '.')

Let us all recall that Club of rome came here basically denying much of the PO argument.


What? So now we've got the differences between being "inquisitive" and "denying" confused?

I've got no inherent trouble with Peak, occasionally a beef with peoples ability to forecast it, and I definitely don't like sloppy terminology, but I've got alot more trouble with the assumed consequences of doom, gloom and destruction which others take for granted. I simply miss the connection, in part because I haven't seen the economic assumptions necessary to make the leap from Peak to Dieoff.

Lots of arm waving there, lots of assumptions, and most of it by people who aren't familiar with supply and demand, let alone stuff more complicated, and predicting economic consequences is WAY more complicated.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby venky » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 01:07:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'S')o basically we should follow the government or official line ahead of what our own senses or research on the subject shows? That is critical thinking???


I wasn't there, so my senses are useless.
All sources of research are at best second and third hand.
All available sources have been redacted to one extent or another by their producers.

Basically, it falls into the category of "unknowable". For items in this category, a government report has a slight edge over a "privately researched" report. Not huge. But a working advantage, and enjoys presumptive acceptance. Not a designation of TRUTH, but simple usefulness and acceptability.


I wouldn't totally agree with that assessment. There are eye-witness accounts, first hand reports by those who were present; experts from both sides who claim to be knowledgeable on the subject. If you research far enough, you should be able to determine which accounts are factual and which are not; for most of the cases, if not all. I would characterize it as complex as opposed to unknowable. Mind you, if you read my earlier posts on the subject, I am far from impressed by most 9/11 arguments.

As for the acceptance of the official government version, if you start with the assumption that your own government is capable of perpetrating mass murder on its own people, then any government statement is certainly not going to be accepted. On the other hand if you believe that your government is essentially good as has your best interests at heart, I can understand why you might give more credibility to the Government version.

I think the point is that a overwhelming majority of those who have looked at the issue from both sides have come to a conclusion based on ideological reasons and preconcieved prejeduces as opposed to an impartial evaluation of the facts; which requires more effort and resources to analyze than the average person is capable of.

Personally, I know enough to realize that there is disinformation on both sides, though my judgement (based a lot on just very simple reasoning and preconcieved notions) is that it is extremely unlikely that the Government could have perpetrated a conspiracy on this scale and keep it secret.

My main point is that since the 9/11 folks cant prove their case to a majority of folks; and are basically considered as nuts and outcasts by most Americans, they should not link Peak Oil with 9/11. We have enough credibility problems already thanks to the doomer and survivalist types.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 01:13:31

My point exactly so why dont you get your ass out of this discussion then?!? and stay out!!

I gaurantee this link has been posted right in your MFN face yet you chose to ignore it....

nuh nuh what link - so many links - I am so confused - blah blah bla

Why do you persist?
Like a tick or leach you cling to PO and this forum.

The only thing that makes any sense is that you live to distort and/or dilute the truth yet why???
why indeed...

If you cant test it then you cant prove it then why the hell are you talking about it as if you have an opinion.
How can you even have an opinion as you cant test it!!!
You cant test PO either ya SMFR!!

why indeed......
You know I have you pegged and up a tree - hellhounds on your trail boy!!! hellhounds on your trail!!!
This person RWWFF is as close as some of you may ever get to a real agent - have a good look and know thy enemy.

Little slight here little nudge there - dilute - downplay - degrade.
This is not denial or rationalization - this mofo is an Agent and he is not alone!!!

Lastly - any of you peakers who are worried about PO being labelled as crazy because of association with 9/11 truth - you are not peakers or you would know what it is like trying to convince friends and family about PO.
It was the first time people looked at me like I was crazy......

You are just a passive on looker, a witness to a trainwreck.
One that we or you may have prevented but were too afraid to try.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby Zentric » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 01:17:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')So quick and simple, is it a MIHOP, LIHOP, GIT, or Morphine Drip.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Better yet debunk each part with links!!! yeah Wink


Can't debunk it, because I can't TEST it. And because I can't TEST it, I'm not particularly interested in it.

And, as I've noted other places, even if it was MIHOP, I wouldn't really care that much. As nauseating as you might find that. We're at war, and have been for at least a couple decades now; its a slow, icky, torturous war, and it has begun to, and will further continue to erode everything good about both peoples. It will debase us all down to the core predatory lust that lurks within, it will release it; and we will kill until there is nothing that remains that draws breath.

That is the dark world that this little incident falls into.
So you want to believe MIHOP? Great, fine. Its MIHOP.
You want to believe its LIHOP? Sure, swell, whatever. Its LIHOP.
Think its just idgits at the controls? Wonderful. The idgits did it.


Verbose, obtuse, perverse, and boring.

Will I have to share the future with people like you, or just with jackals of the ordinary variety?
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby JustinFrankl » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 01:51:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'M')y opinions are not shiftable by video of material I can neither test and verify nor test and falsify. Nice thing about PO, is the math is not complicated. At its most difficult it relies on simple calculus; setting upper bounds, and restricting the range of possibilities.

Proper forecasting in this dynamic environment will involve iterative systems of differential equations, or applied chaos theory.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd I am most certainly not going to spend nearly an hour and half watching another 9/11 conspiracy video.

So quick and simple, is it a MIHOP, LIHOP, GIT, or Morphine Drip.

Borderline MIHOP/LIHOP. Like most 9/11 videos, since the pieces and picture are still incomplete, the argument is incomplete, but still compelling enough for some people to continue investigating. I'm one of those people, but the investigating process is largely mental masturbation. It's only slightly more likely that we will ever get to the bottom of what really happened on 9/11 than it is we'll get to the bottom of the Kennedy assassination.

This was still a good video. Loose Change 2nd Ed was good. Barrie Zwicker's Great Conspiracy, also good. Watching them still all involve separating the wheat from the chaff, but they still have a lot of wheat.

The demolition videos are very telling, but without an understanding of physics, structural engineering, demolition, fluid dynamics, and some statistical mechanics and chaos theory, most people will just have to accept or reject the videos' claims based on the slickness of the presentation, as opposed to its content.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd, as I've noted other places, even if it was MIHOP, I wouldn't really care that much. As nauseating as you might find that. We're at war, and have been for at least a couple decades now; its a slow, icky, torturous war, and it has begun to, and will further continue to erode everything good about both peoples. It will debase us all down to the core predatory lust that lurks within, it will release it; and we will kill until there is nothing that remains that draws breath.

That is the dark world that this little incident falls into.

And I thought we would have nothing in common.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o you want to believe MIHOP? Great, fine. Its MIHOP.
You want to believe its LIHOP? Sure, swell, whatever. Its LIHOP.
Think its just idgits at the controls? Wonderful. The idgits did it.

A couple centuries from now, the question won't be MIHOP/LIHOP, the question will be, "what was this thing you called New York again?"

Ok, ultimately the world is on an express elevator to hell, going down. I agree. To me, though, the rate of descent, and in which specific circle of Dante's Inferno the elevator stops, is dependent on determining where in the continuum did 9/11 occur: blind luck / accident / LIHOP / MIHOP.

I'll probably be dead in a few centuries, so I'd like to answer these questions for myself now.
"We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby cheaplaughs2 » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 02:28:05

Well here's my 2 cents I will start buy saying I do believe in PO.
I dont believe 911 was created to start a oil grab in the mideast
I mean shit couldnt they have just blown up something in saudi
arabia and said we need to protect are vital interests and gone about
it that way.If they couldnt cover up foley's lewd internet chatter
with teenage boy's how the f#$$ does anyone think they could
keep 911 under wraps.I also think the world is filled with evil fuck's
who did want to and do want to fly airplanes into tall bulidings
filled with innocent people.People alway's point out no building
has ever come down because of fire.Can someone please tell me
when until that day was the last time 2 airplane's packed with
fuel were crashed into skyscraper's so they would know the effect.
I would also reccomend the documentry BESLAN for anybody who
dosent believe there are evil terrorists who just want too kill the
innocent.Let the personal attacks begin :)
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 02:58:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cheaplaughs2', 'I') would also reccomend the documentry BESLAN for anybody who dosent believe there are evil terrorists who just want too kill the innocent.Let the personal attacks begin :)


Ok, well, if you want to play, this is how it works:

I say something like : "Geez, I was really frustrated that the 911 Commission Report didn't say anything about the collapse of WTC7 or the molten pools of metal which flowed in the tremendously hot rubble piles for as long as 5 weeks after the attacks. I was also curious about who bought those put options on the airlines and then failed to show up to claim the millions in profits".

Then you say something about Scientology or moon mice or whatever.

Ready? I'll start.

Ok, hmmm...Alright.

Geez. I wish the government would release the Pentagon wreckage and classified film, photos etc. so that independent investigators could examine those things.

Ok, your turn.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby zberry » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 08:14:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ersonally, I know enough to realize that there is disinformation on both sides, though my judgement (based a lot on just very simple reasoning and preconcieved notions) is that it is extremely unlikely that the Government could have perpetrated a conspiracy on this scale and keep it secret.

This is a point that many people make, but it simply doesn't hold water (at least for me). For one thing, due to compartmentalization, most people have no idea of the "big picture" and how the little job they are doing might fit in. CIA keeps secrets all time. In additiion, tens of thousands were involved in Manhattan Project and kept secret. Stealth Bomber, kept secret.
Hell, even when NORAD and FAA lied to 9/11 Commission, no one in military personnel stepped forward to say, "That's not true!"
So just the fact that no big shot has stepped forward to say, "I admit it. It was all an inside job," doesn't really prove anything.
Also, are you aware that FAA personnel (current and retired) are under a federal gag order? Bet you didn't. Gag orders certainly help keep secrets. As well, NY firefighters and police are under an "unofficial" gag order due to the political lightning rod that 9/11 is. If they speak out, they catch hell from the union.
But you can listen to the firefighters (before they were silenced) in the French brothers documentary film talking about the explosions going off on each floor.
But more than 50% of New Yorkers believe it was an inside job and more than 40% of Americans (Zogby Poll) don't believe the government's story.
May I please say a word about the rescue workers and city residents/workers who were told the air was OK so Wall Street could open and for PR purposes? The rescue workers are literally dropping like flies from resperitory diseases, coughing up blood.
All in all, we need a new investigation to follow ALL LEADS.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 10:15:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JustinFrankl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'M')y opinions are not shiftable by video of material I can neither test and verify nor test and falsify. Nice thing about PO, is the math is not complicated. At its most difficult it relies on simple calculus; setting upper bounds, and restricting the range of possibilities.

Proper forecasting in this dynamic environment will involve iterative systems of differential equations, or applied chaos theory.


Thats the model, not the proof that the problem exists. And I've had partial diffy, complex analysis, etc. Didn't do any chaos, just not my thing. That said, I don't think we have enough information to create a good predictive model yet. Particularly, consumer response to $5/gal and $10/gal fuel, offshore reserves in the US in prohibited areas, reserves in the deeper arctic. and what (coal and oil) is under all that ice in antarctica. None of that is known, and any one of them could throw a massive wrench into any model if the answer is of significant impact.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he demolition videos are very telling, but without an understanding of physics, structural engineering, demolition, fluid dynamics, and some statistical mechanics and chaos theory, most people will just have to accept or reject the videos' claims based on the slickness of the presentation, as opposed to its content.


Whats worse, is that they are cut and edited. raw footage, untouched, from the time the camera locked on the WTC, till the time it had to leave, with no voice over, would be modestly interesting. Most people, I know, would find THAT catastrophically boring. Not my fault.

The only thing I feel when watching 9/11 conspiracy videos is an overwhelming urge to heckle the voice-over guy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat is the dark world that this little incident falls into.

And I thought we would have nothing in common.
There are more than a few right wing nutbar doomers. Thank you very much.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o me, though, the rate of descent, and in which specific circle of Dante's Inferno the elevator stops, is dependent on determining where in the continuum did 9/11 occur: blind luck / accident / LIHOP / MIHOP.

My opinion.... rate of descent: MAXIMAL. (and intentionally so) Final destination, pancake, in a crater, at the bottom level.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 10:44:44

odd that you just cant seem to leave this topic alone isnt it rwwff?

odd that it bothers some people as it does yet they refuse to admit it.

You speak of heckling the movies moderator.
Of what film?
What have you watched?

Careful as I always have a point to prove and based upon past points proven I am batting .1000 and you look like my next waist high fast ball.....batter up!!
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 10:55:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'M')y point exactly so why dont you get your ass out of this discussion then?!? and stay out!!

No.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') gaurantee this link has been posted right in your MFN face yet you chose to ignore it....


Its 81 minutes of video! How many times do I have to watch the same silly things, listening to the voice over guy spout stuff with no rigorous proof.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'n')uh nuh what link - so many links - I am so confused - blah blah bla

I explicitly acknowledged the link. Heck, just to make you feel better, I might even waste an hour of my life watching it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy do you persist?
Like a tick or leach you cling to PO and this forum.

It is my nature.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he only thing that makes any sense is that you live to distort and/or dilute the truth yet why???
why indeed...

The truth will set you free, but you do not have access to the truth. Only one chosen distortion, out of many distortions. You s*lect that distortion which serves your personality best.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou cant test PO either ya SMFR!!
Um. Yes. Indeed I can. Can't prove a date of course; but whether that date is 2010, or 2080, or 2539, PO is real.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou know I have you pegged and up a tree - hellhounds on your trail boy!!! hellhounds on your trail!!!

The hellhounds belong to me, and answer to my call. So, of course they are on my trail. It'd be a shame if they got lost.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his person RWWFF is as close as some of you may ever get to a real agent - have a good look and know thy enemy.
Thats a little over the top I think.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')astly - any of you peakers who are worried about PO being labelled as crazy because of association with 9/11 truth - you are not peakers or you would know what it is like trying to convince friends and family about PO.
It was the first time people looked at me like I was crazy......

I would never attempt to convince family and friends; especially since most of mine seem to be doing the appropriate things without being prodded. Its much more effective to be subtle, brag about your Yaris instead of your speedboat, show off your bicycle instead of your iPod. Plant a 15ftx15ft square of corn and share the fresh ears with family and friends.

It doesn't have anything to do with being labelled crazy or wise, it has to do with getting the greatest possible adaptive response from the group of people you are responsible for. If they dismiss it as crazy and feel manipulated, they'll buy a hummer; if they see how much you enjoy your little efficient car, they might buy something less expensive and more useful.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are just a passive on looker, a witness to a trainwreck.
One that we or you may have prevented but were too afraid to try.

People tend to watch wrecks happen with "oh no" on their lips, and glee in their eyes.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby ClubOfRomeII » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 11:18:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')
It was the first time people looked at me like I was crazy......



Don't worry, it obviously won't be the last. I suppose you'll get used to it sometime?
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 11:28:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'o')dd that you just cant seem to leave this topic alone isnt it rwwff?
odd that it bothers some people as it does yet they refuse to admit it.

I refuse to admit nothing. (nasty double negative, no?) It bothers me alot that people let a twiddle get in the way of important things.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou speak of heckling the movies moderator.
Of what film? What have you watched?


I did watch Farenheit 9/11, and I've looked at a couple youtube/google videos, but I usually have to mute the voiceover because its so annoying.

Just to simplify your effort though, and I'm sure I'll slap my own hand later for wasting my time with it, I'll watch this particular video, tonight or tomorrow.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')areful as I always have a point to prove and based upon past points proven I am batting .1000 and you look like my next waist high fast ball.....batter up!!


Sliders sometimes look that way.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 11:35:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'V')erbose, obtuse, perverse, and boring.


Sometimes life is like that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ill I have to share the future with people like you, or just with jackals of the ordinary variety?


We come with the package. Sorry.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 11:56:38

I have never used the ignoro function as I equate it to ignorance yet I am about to try it ;-)

Watch this video:
911 Cover Up

What you fail to realize is that I/we have all of the info that you have and more.
I did not want to "taint" PO so for over a year I avoided the 9/11 issue all together.
Same with global warming - it was simply overwhelming.
I for one am tired of hiding from the truth.

These things become splinters inside the open mind and they demand answers.

watch the video - we shall discuss - be prepared to defend your position or accept defeat and then promptly admit the truth.

otherwise you will force me to hit ignore.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 12:15:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'I') have never used the ignoro function as I equate it to ignorance yet I am about to try it


You should do whatever pleases you most.

However, I'm going to violate that rule and watch your suggested video this weekend. However, don't expect me to come out defending the government report since I do not consider it to be "truth", nor "loose change" since all the "evidence" presented will likely have been subjected to editorial snippage.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby Mesuge » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 12:47:36

Perhaps you better start with 9/11 Press for Truth, which is a mature look of the 9/11 families on how the government promises about real investigation which was established after delays and only thanks to their constant presure turned out to be in the end a sick joke..

9/11 Press For Truth:
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/story

Video Google:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +for+truth
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby rwwff » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 12:58:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mesuge', 'P')erhaps you better start with 9/11 Press for Truth, which is a mature look of the 9/11 families on how the government promises about real investigation which was established after delays and only thanks to their constant presure turned out to be in the end a sick joke..


Families of victims always want more, and better, and best. They don't want to pay for it. All of which is understandable, and I'm not trying to be mean, but of course an investigation is going to look like that to them; and of course they are going to think it a sick joke until they get the head that they want, or if the can't get that one, then at least they want the president's head.

Nothing less could possibly satisfy the injury they feel.
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Re: Documentary: "Oil, Smoke and Mirrors"

Unread postby Mesuge » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 13:22:34

Well, your comment might have some merit in general debate but that's not the point of the documentary or evidence being presented there..

Moreover, without the families there would be 1/100th of the information available in the public domain today. Ignorance is not a virtue.

The president and his team actively obfuscated the investigation, which doesn't automatically mean he order the attacks it just means he authorized coverup for whatever reason and that's a mainstream wisdom now, deal with it buddy..
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