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We can believe

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 12:57:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', ' ')There is Methodist Church in my city that is very big into sustainability, but has a female Pastor (which I don't believe in).


Does the bible tell you that women are incapable/unqualified (pick word of your choosing) of holding this type of responsibility or is that something you thought up on your own?
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 13:03:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes the bible tell you that women are incapable/unqualified (pick word of your choosing) of holding this type of responsibility or is that something you thought up on your own?


Actually neither - It is one of function, similiar to the structure in the military. The male leaders in the church are to "lay down their lives" (but really means to "live for") for the ones they are leading. The male leaders lead by being the lead servants - It is not leadership in the dictatorial sense, as we see in... say...The Whitehouse today.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 13:20:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes the bible tell you that women are incapable/unqualified (pick word of your choosing) of holding this type of responsibility or is that something you thought up on your own?


Actually neither - It is one of function, similiar to the structure in the military. The male leaders in the church are to "lay down their lives" (but really means to "live for") for the ones they are leading. The male leaders lead by being the lead servants - It is not leadership in the dictatorial sense, as we see in... say...The Whitehouse today.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


At least based on the quote and rationale you provide, I would have to conclude that you thought it up on your own and perhaps justify it from liberal interpretation of your source material. No real problem with that, although you would have a decision to make about hermaphrodites. Does the bible say anything about what people of ambiguous gender can do or not?
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 13:43:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')t least based on the quote and rationale you provide, I would have to conclude that you thought it up on your own and perhaps justify it from liberal interpretation of your source material. No real problem with that, although you would have a decision to make about hermaphrodites. Does the bible say anything about what people of ambiguous gender can do or not?


OK Here we go....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1')Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


This was referring to a church that was out of order in that day. But the issue of women leading men violates all biblical instruction for men to lead the church. Women can lead women and teach kids, but Men are to hold the "head" office in a church.

Please don't hit me with the equality issue because it simply has nothing to do with that. And besides women have a much greater responsibilty in raising children and keeping the home than men do (in my opinion). Anybody can go out and get a job these days, but raising responsible, respectfull kids is not something just "anyone" can do.

I don't know any hermorphodites, and unless taking down your pants and showing your genetails is a reqirement for a pastoral ordination/confirmation I see nothing biblically that would not allow a hermorphadite to be a Pastor. I personally like Pastors to be married because marriage is a key part of creating a stable environment for children, and Pastors need to be knowledgable in that area.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 13:49:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'f')or several yearsin the 80's I followed a flipped out guru Osho (formerly known as Bhagwan shree Rajneesh) . You may remember the ranch they had in your home state of Oregon back in the 80's and all the intrigue surrounding its demise. It was a wild time when I look back on that now. So much energy and so much deception. I learned alot of lessons from that.


You see - Christianity is not the only institution that has been invaded by charletons seeking to line thier own pockets...

:)
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 14:09:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'O')K Here we go....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1')Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


OK, that's a little less ambiguous. Can't speak, can't preach. I guess the church you mentioned with the female ignores these parts. Thanks for your patience with me on this.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't know any hermorphodites, and unless taking down your pants and showing your genetails is a reqirement for a pastoral ordination/confirmation I see nothing biblically that would not allow a hermorphadite to be a Pastor. I personally like Pastors to be married because marriage is a key part of creating a stable environment for children, and Pastors need to be knowledgable in that area.


Well, hermaphrodites can marry in all states as long as they claim a gender that is the opposite of the one they are marrying. In some states they can claim either relationship. Checking genitals would not resolve anything since by definition they would gave both sets. So, the question would be do you count them as both male and female, or neither male nor female.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 14:22:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, hermaphrodites can marry in all states as long as they claim a gender that is the opposite of the one they are marrying. In some states they can claim either relationship. Checking genitals would not resolve anything since by definition they would gave both sets. So, the question would be do you count them as both male and female, or neither male nor female.


How many hermorphadites are there actually out there ? And has this issue ever came up ? I have never heard of it.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 14:37:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, hermaphrodites can marry in all states as long as they claim a gender that is the opposite of the one they are marrying. In some states they can claim either relationship. Checking genitals would not resolve anything since by definition they would gave both sets. So, the question would be do you count them as both male and female, or neither male nor female.


How many hermorphadites are there actually out there ? And has this issue ever came up ? I have never heard of it.


I assume it's very rare and this from wikipedia

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to the highest estimates (Fausto-Sterling et. al., 2000) perhaps 1 percent of live births exhibit some degree of sexual ambiguity [1], and that between 0.1% and 0.2% of live births are ambiguous enough to become the subject of specialist medical attention, including surgery to disguise their sexual ambiguity. Other sources (Leonard Sax, 2002) create a narrower definition of "true intersexual conditions" and estimate the incidence as far lower, at approximately 0.018%.


I think "true intersexual conditions" refers to when both sets of genetalia are functional to a degree.

Regardless, it doesn't seem to me that god would care how rare something is. He wouldn't let people just slip though the cracks, would he? So any gender-based decrees should have to consider these rare cases that occur in nature.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 22:00:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'H')ow many hermorphadites are there actually out there ? And has this issue ever came up ? I have never heard of it.


People don't like facts that conflict with a black and white view of the world. Gender is a good example, when you want absolute roles for one or the other, then find that gender is not absolute.

So normal solution is to persecute the offenders (ie people who are not 100% one way or the other) rather than modify their view of a black and white world.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 00:28:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'S')o normal solution is to persecute the offenders (ie people who are not 100% one way or the other) rather than modify their view of a black and white world.


This is the problem when you take a literal interpretation of a book that was written in another age for another time even if it is full of spiritual wisdom. When you are a literalist and have a black and white duality you have no choice but to try to fit the universe and all it's phenomena into the restrictive boundaries of a fixed idealogy that does not allow for evolution. Christianity does not need to go extinct. It can evolve but not if you try to squeeze a 70 million year old dinosaur imprint into a 4000 year time scale. This is what makes literal followers so obtuse.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 02:49:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'D')oes buddhism offer a reason why goodness and purity are 'right'? Is that dictated from some higher power or do they claim it is self-evident or is it based on practical experience or what ? I guess I should take some religion courses. Didn't have much time for that in engineering school.


We need a "clueless buddhist" to give you the best answer. I am not a strict practicing buddhist but I understand its basic tenants. Good old wikipedia does a pretty good job;
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism.

Noble Eightfold Path
The Buddha told people to follow a special way of life called the Noble Eightfold Path if they want to understand the Four Noble Truths and end suffering. These are:

Right View
Right Thought
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Job
Right Effort (or Right Working)
Right Mindfulness (or Right Awakeness)
Right Concentration (or Right Deep-thinking)
To learn more, read: Noble Eightfold Path


Five Precepts
Most Buddhists follow five precepts, or rules, that say what not to do. These are similar to the Ten Commandments in Christianity, or the Yamas and Niyamas in Hinduism.

These are the Five Precepts.

I will not hurt a person or animal that is alive.
I will not take something if it was not given to me.
I will not have sex in a way that is not right.
I will not lie or say things that hurt people.
I will not take intoxicants, like alcohol or drugs.
In some types of Buddhism, when a person wants to be a monk, he will follow other precepts also.


Buddhism is part discipline you practice (as in meditation), part philosophy and part religion. Desire and attachment is what prevents one from reaching a more awakened or enlightened state. Meditation is key to letting go of desire and attachment. It is almost more phiosophy than religion but concepts like Karma and reincarnation are definately religious in that your behaviour in this life effects what life you will be reborn into. This acts in a similar way to christianity in offering some sort of continuity after death and in instilling a moral discipline. Like going to hell in christianity if as a buddhist you do harm and steal or commit murder or rape you will pay for it in your next life by your accumulation of bad karma. Christianity gives you maybe an easier way to atone for your bad karma. Just accept Jesus and your sins are forgotten. In buddhism it may take you many lives to atone for accumulated bad karma.

There is no bible in buddhism, just many fables and stories all pointing toward acheiving an awakened or meditative awareness.

Buddhists, unlike islam or christianity, do not believe in a creator.

Buddhists are not evangelical. They do not try to convert and there is no concept of being saved. They would look at the act of trying to convert someone to their way of thinking as an act of aggression.

Buddhist philosophy is often referred to as the science of the spirit as it is more focussed on the practice of overcoming the human condition. I have read 1200 year old texts that read more like humanistic psychology text than religion.

Western scientists and agnostics in search of spiritual meaning often find it easier to embrace buddhism than any of the monotheistic religions due to is more philosophic characteristics.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 02:53:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'f')or several yearsin the 80's I followed a flipped out guru Osho (formerly known as Bhagwan shree Rajneesh) . You may remember the ranch they had in your home state of Oregon back in the 80's and all the intrigue surrounding its demise. It was a wild time when I look back on that now. So much energy and so much deception. I learned alot of lessons from that.


You see - Christianity is not the only institution that has been invaded by charletons seeking to line thier own pockets...

:)


Absolutely! I do not single out christianity in some of my harsher criticisms.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 03:08:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'L')et me ask you a question: Corporations run the world. do you see them ever changing ? I don't.


If dinosaurs evolved into hummingbirds why cant corporations change? Just a little humour there for ya.

It will take such a radical cultural transformation to change the dominant role of corporations in our current society. No less than a revolution that will have to include, besides social and environmental justice and sustainability, a spiritual dimension as well.

But I do believe that corporations will some day no longer run the world as today and this will change simply because their survivability is based on consuming and growth in a finite world. This is not sustainable. At the point that society realizes this, somewhere on the way toward or after collapse, then there will be the beginnings of a new paradigm where perhaps a future economic system will emerge with a whole other set of guiding principals that we cant even imagine today. But we wont see this in our life time. Only in a deeper time span beyond my own mortal life can I be an optimist.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Zardoz » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 09:19:09

Sure glad to see this finally getting straightened out:

Vatican to review state of limbo]Vatican to review state of limbo

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or centuries many Roman Catholics have believed that the souls of babies who die before baptism remain in limbo.

But the concept has never been part of official Church teaching, and it is thought Pope Benedict may be keen to do away with it.

...Limbo has also been held to be the final destination for people who lived virtuous lives before the time of Christ. It is not certain whether this teaching is likely to be changed.


Yeah! What about all those good folks? Have they been hangin' around in Limbo for thousands of years? Huh? What about them?!?

It's tough to reconcile all these concepts, isn't it?
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Sun 15 Oct 2006, 19:23:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'I')t's tough to reconcile all these concepts, isn't it?


When you tell a lie, you then have to tell a bigger lie to avoid being found out about the first lie.

That is how religions and economic theories start.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 30 Apr 2007, 07:36:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', 'I')t's tough to reconcile all these concepts, isn't it?


When you tell a lie, you then have to tell a bigger lie to avoid being found out about the first lie.

That is how religions and economic theories start.


Vatican says might not need to worry about "Limbo"!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')fter three years of study, a Vatican-appointed panel of theologians has declared that limbo is a "problematic" concept that Catholics are free to reject. The 30-member International Theological Commission said there are good reasons to believe instead that unbaptized babies go to heaven, because God is merciful and "wants all human beings to be saved."


But, limbo is still out there, so be careful...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o faithful Catholics, the Vatican's pronouncement does not mean that limbo once existed and suddenly is abolished; it means there are grounds for hope that unbaptized babies are in heaven -- and have been all along.


The press isn't buying it

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The Vatican is suggesting that salvation is possible without baptism. That is heresy," said Kenneth J. Wolfe, Washington columnist for the Remnant, a traditionalist Catholic newspaper.

Beliefs can change

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')It shows that Benedict is not afraid to look at something that has been taught in the church for centuries and say it is not at the core of Catholic belief," said the Rev. Thomas J. Reese, a senior fellow at Georgetown University's Woodstock Theological Center and a former editor of the Jesuit magazine America.

"This is a critical issue for our time: what is central to our faith, what is peripheral; what can change, what can't."

I wonder what the 'evidence' was, other than the new guy thinking that this limbo stuff is giving me a headache.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Heineken » Mon 04 Jun 2007, 10:15:34

test post
"Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog

"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---I & my bro.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Rogozhin » Tue 05 Jun 2007, 00:51:51

I'm a neo platonist. I'm a metaphysical monster, but I'm not a christian. :)

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