Asserting that someone else was afraid of something as a means of debating the merit of their position always seemed a bit weak to me.
First off, fear is a very useful, powerful emotion, and it more often than not should be obeyed. Teaching people to be ashamed of their fear, causes them to dismiss what would be clear otherwise and fail to act.
Second off, whether some individual is afraid of something or loves something tells you nothing about the validity of that something.
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We can believe
Re: We can believe
by rwwff » Thu 28 Sep 2006, 01:37:33
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
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Re: We can believe
by Ibon » Thu 28 Sep 2006, 02:39:03
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'F')irst off, fear is a very useful, powerful emotion, and it more often than not should be obeyed. Teaching people to be ashamed of their fear, causes them to dismiss what would be clear otherwise and fail to act.
Your interpretation of my comment was that I was somehow teaching or suggesting that Clueless should be ashamed? In no way did I imply that. I was trying to open him/her up where I perceive he/she is spiritually and intellectually impoverished by an overly literal interpretation of his faith. Maybe this impression that I was trying to make Clueless feel ashamed was your projection of what I wrote? It probably resonated or struck a nerve in you that wouldn't hurt for you to explore further. I understand that criticisms of ones faith can become aggressive and that many christians feel this, because belief and faith are delicate and fragile, like love, and can be so easily squashed by an overly rational opposition. But you know, for me that is just another sign of weakness of ones faith. Sorry.
Integrating faith and rational science is characteristic of a multidimensional understanding of our universe and one that would be embraced by any all mighty god one would choose to beleive in. It is this overly simple dualistic good/evil, virtue/sin faith/science heaven/hell (your either with us/ or against us) that is so limiting and dumbing down of ones spirituality that is sadly all to often preached in christianity and other faiths.
I agree with you though, fear is a very powerful emotion, just look at how our governent wields it's power or how the christian church did and continues to do for that matter. I'm a little confused in what you mean though about obeying it? Are you implying that fear is good as an article of faith as this helps keep the flock in line preventing them from commiting crimes and immoral acts, as in fearing the wrath of god?
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Re: We can believe
by Ibon » Thu 28 Sep 2006, 04:00:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')Second off, whether some individual is afraid of something or loves something tells you nothing about the validity of that something.
')Second off, whether some individual is afraid of something or loves something tells you nothing about the validity of that something.
Validity is not required when you have faith. If you need validity to prop up your faith than your faith must be weak or confused. When you have faith you know it, having been touched by the deeper truth of god, that knowledge is beyond reason and logic. And so you look upon your bible as the ultimate word on faith. So take the bible and honor it, even literally as a scientific document of faith. But why then the need to take it as a document and hold it up against rational science? How can you then take the literal word of the bible stating the planet is 4 or 6 thousand years old and hold this up to the imprint on a rock of a 70 million year old dinosaur and then allow your faith to twist the obvious truth around in your mind to conclude that this fossil is false evidence and its age unproven. Only a mind that confuses faith and science in a dumbed down duality would take that leap into foolish denial. Let me put it to you in no uncertain terms. You are being ignorant and stupid and not true either to your faith or your own native intelligence if you choose to embrace this logic. (That since I have faith in the bible all that it states must be true and that when science contradicts it then the science must be wrong). Now don't feel ashamed that I called you ignorant. Just meditate on this you thick numbskulled christian idiot! Just joking.
Where is the source of all this confusion? You see, to be christian your bible tells you that you have to believe that your way is the only way to god and knowing christ will save you and all others are damned. So if the bible is wrong on the age of the planet then maybe its also wrong that those who do not follow christ may not neccessarily be damned to hell. And then maybe my faith is not the only faith. This truth would be to shattering to accept so I have to believe that impression in the rock of a dinosaur was one of gods little tricks or experiments. You see, it is a weakness in faith if you cannot accept that your bible is only one facet in a diamond of spiritual beliefs and that you share your spiritual beliefs with many other facets and religions. How flimsy is your faith if it is so threatened?
To require that your religion is the only right one is a clear sign in the weakness of your faith as is the literal interpretation of a 2000 year old document vs. the overwleming evidence of that 200 million year old trilobite. Why do you torture yourselves when you can preserve your faith and have that 200 million old trilobite too?
F**K, I'm driving myself crazy and entering too deep into your paradigm. Gotta get out of this house of mirrors.
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Re: We can believe
by Graeme » Thu 28 Sep 2006, 04:30:13
To all of the people contributing to this thread, I hope you find this link of interest:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he truth is that Darwin, the author of the theory of evolution, was actually a reluctant convert to his own hypothesis and, for the first part of his professional life, was a reasonably orthodox Christian and a firm believer in creation. In the end, as we know, he did lose his faith, but it was a reluctant loss—and not a result, as many believe, of his ideas about evolution.
In the final analysis, one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, the architect of the worldview that some believe was inspired by Satan, lost his faith when his daughter died and not as a consequence of the controversial theory that so many mistakenly think is incompatible with belief in God. Darwin the religious believer understood that there are many ways to interpret the claim that God created the world, and he simply offered a more sophisticated one to replace the traditional story in Genesis. But there is only one way to understand Christianity’s central claim that God loves us and cares deeply about our happiness. And for Annie’s father, this did not square with the death of a child.
He never embraced atheism. And even within his controversial theory, he continued to find room for God. In a beautifully crafted passage at the end of On the Origin of Species, he wrote:
“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he truth is that Darwin, the author of the theory of evolution, was actually a reluctant convert to his own hypothesis and, for the first part of his professional life, was a reasonably orthodox Christian and a firm believer in creation. In the end, as we know, he did lose his faith, but it was a reluctant loss—and not a result, as many believe, of his ideas about evolution.
In the final analysis, one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, the architect of the worldview that some believe was inspired by Satan, lost his faith when his daughter died and not as a consequence of the controversial theory that so many mistakenly think is incompatible with belief in God. Darwin the religious believer understood that there are many ways to interpret the claim that God created the world, and he simply offered a more sophisticated one to replace the traditional story in Genesis. But there is only one way to understand Christianity’s central claim that God loves us and cares deeply about our happiness. And for Annie’s father, this did not square with the death of a child.
He never embraced atheism. And even within his controversial theory, he continued to find room for God. In a beautifully crafted passage at the end of On the Origin of Species, he wrote:
“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
science-spirit
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
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Re: We can believe
by Doly » Thu 28 Sep 2006, 05:00:51
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Validity is not required when you have faith. If you need validity to prop up your faith than your faith must be weak or confused. When you have faith you know it, having been touched by the deeper truth of god, that knowledge is beyond reason and logic.
')Validity is not required when you have faith. If you need validity to prop up your faith than your faith must be weak or confused. When you have faith you know it, having been touched by the deeper truth of god, that knowledge is beyond reason and logic.
Mathematicians get that sort of thing all the time. I mean, the conviction that something or other is the Truth. Normally this will be about mathematical issues, but it can happen with other things, too. If it's a mathematical Truth, they will try to prove it like crazy. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes they don't, and somebody else proves it later, maybe even centuries afterwards (these are famous conjectures).
And sometimes, somebody else proves them wrong. It's a good lesson in humility. And it shows you the great trap of faith: to confuse your convictions that something is true with the Truth.
No single human can establish whether something is true or not. Only many people, putting their intelligences together, can sift through an issue enough to become reasonably certain that the remaining conclusion, whatever it is, must be true. The Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was God." Christians say the Word is the Bible. I think a much more interesting interpretation is that the Word is just people talking together, putting their minds together, to make something bigger than any single human could be.
Incidentally, that's why the Internet is so great. It makes it much easier to put all the minds interested in a particular subject together.
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