[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'Y')ou should rename this thread something like “Result of unlimited free energy?” – so that people bother to read it instead of dismiss it as most likely would.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')Ultimately we'd destroy every planet in the universe, habitable or not.

The universe would become a giant pulsing humanoid mass.

People would become God.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')
Firstly is the standard of living issue. As we should all know, some of the worst environmental destruction in the world occurs in underdeveloped nations. With unlimited free energy for the entire world, we raise the standard of living for all and with that, we greatly reduce the burden that underdeveloped nations put on the environment.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')The big picture is that with unlimited free energy, the nature of consumption will radically change.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')This does seem to be the logical conclusion to come to regarding the implication of true free energy. However I disagree. This perspective assumes an important point which is false: that our current cultural mindset is unchanging.

Sure, if people were permanently stuck in the 1980’s mindset of ‘greed is good’, then I have no doubt that we would eventually destroy the world given free energy. But how realistic is it that we stay this way forever?

[max_power29]

If we harvested stuff like zero point energy, wouldn't we end up causing black holes and rips in space-time that would either shred, implode, or detonate all matter in the vicinity?

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', ' ')This does seem to be the logical conclusion to come to regarding the implication of true free energy. However I disagree. This perspective assumes an important point which is false: that our current cultural mindset is unchanging.

Sure, if people were permanently stuck in the 1980’s mindset of ‘greed is good’, then I have no doubt that we would eventually destroy the world given free energy. But how realistic is it that we stay this way forever?

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'I')f we harvested stuff like zero point energy, wouldn't we end up causing black holes and rips in space-time that would either shred, implode, or detonate all matter in the vicinity?

[galacticsurfer]

"Free" energy is relative. For cave man fire using wood was a novel innovation which was comparatively free compared to energy from body heat through eating. Europe and most of civilized world was deforested by end of middle ages. Transition was then to coal and next to fossil oils. Now we will go back to coal which will run out pretty quick and then denude all the remaining forests in a sort of backwards efficiency trend.

Any ZPE machine necesstitates some sort of resources to build, be it solar or even some magnetic steel gizmo and could only produce so much energy per machine per unit time, so it could not be all that good as some energy would be lost on building of said machine and on transfer of said energy to heat, electrical energy, etc. Moral qualms have never stopped us before in our exploitation of natural resources.

Animals follow path of least resistance to obtain energy over time(see how people get used to driving and eating sugary, prepackaged or fast food things instead of walking and eating home prepared healthy foods).

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' '). . . . it is not impoverished populations that are destroying the environment, it is the trends and use of casual polluting technology in the developed countries.

[gg3]

A few years ago I was involved with a sustainable energy research group that looked into (among many other things) zero point energy, in great detail, including sending people to examine devices being promoted by various individuals.

I did not see one single example of a viable system. There were some near-misses, and some obvious frauds, and some wackos, and some earnest but mistaken inventors. The guy who was in charge of that department had to break the bad news to some of these that their devices were not performing as they thought they were, e.g. teach them where they were making measurement errors and so on.

Also coincidentally I installed a PBX & computer infrastructure at Bernie Haisch's office. He's a working astrophysicist, and with a guy named Rueda, was co-author of the original theoretical paper on ZPE that got all the garage inventors hyped about limitless energy.

Bernie Haisch is an honest guy, no question in my mind about that. He & Rueda were looking for a more elegant explanation for inertial mass, which is what led them to publishing their paper. They also speculated that there could be a concentrated energy source there. Somehow they got serious funding to do the theoretical work, and hired a bunch of working scientists from various disciplines. I was in their office often enough to get into conversations with a few of them, and all of them seemed on the level, i.e. nerdy science guys who were interested in theory and not making wild claims about applications.

Based on some recent reading, my best estimate as of now is, ZPE is real but the effect is very small, may be useful for nano-scale applications such as manipulating small masses or providing small energy inputs during manufacturing processes, but this will not solve our energy crisis. There seems to be no viable way, and no good theoretical basis for one, to tap the field and bring forth kilowatts much less megawatts.

And even if there were, we would be right back where we are right now: some other resource would go into shortage, probably water.

We already have a magical energy source from the cutting edges of physics, it's called nuclear fission. According to Lovelock, the early reactors in Great Britain took 2 - 3 years to build, i.e. minus all the NIMBY interference. Realistically today with the added safety systems and so on, 5 - 7 years w/o NIMBYs.

Team up nuclear with large wind farms and you have an ideal combined energy source.

But unless you team those up with massive deployment of contraceptives, we still end up going over the edge into dieoff.

There's no free lunch, much less free dinner with wine and a choice of deserts.

[emailking]

I actually think society would take off if that happened.

If this free energy can actually be extracted at a (virtually) limitless rate as well, then degradation of the planet seems to be a non-issue. We'll be able to manufacture whatever we want: clean water, clean ecosystems, machines that pull carbon and sulfur out of the sky, etc.

The technology isn't there now, but I'm assuming it exists in theory if you have the energy for it. And unlimited energy would give us the unlimited growth necessary to achieve that technology.

When the planet starts to run out of space, we use our unlimited energy to propel spacecrafts at 95% of lightspeed to other earth like planets we have found with our new high powered telescopes. The inhabitants are fozen during the trip and don't realize thousands of years have passed. When they arrive, they use all the free energy and manufacturing machines that were sent along to make a new society.

Or we could just make Mars habitable. Manufacture some oxygen, tune the CO2 content just right for its additional distance from the sun and smaller size..etc. Heck, no reason we couldn't do that for the moon, or Mercury and Venus too! (Dunno about the gas giants. I don't see how to make them solid and keep their size. And you don't exactly want to fall through the surface.)

Or, I could be completely wrong and free energy means we kill ourselves more quickly. Who knows.

[Heineken]

Unlimited free energy would not make us any smarter. Or change any other human characteristics.

Most of us which make us particularly ill-suited to play either God or Nature.

[Matrim]

Omnitir,

710 views later I'm not that concerned.........

Honestly I didn't expect even close to the response I got, the question was a passing fancy. Plus I assumed it had probably already been asked.

Anyhow I really don't have anything new to add to the discussion (pathetic I know) so I'll leave it at that.

Peace

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', ' ')Impoverished populations are also extremely harmful to the environment in their own unique ways. For example, they poach endangered game. Participate in illegal logginig. Strip hillsides of firewood, causing severe erosion and mudslides. Overgraze marginal land, exacerbating desertification. Dump toxic chemicals and used motor oil directly on the ground. And so forth.

[Heineken]

Well, it's a very large pittance, MQ.

Most developing countries are environmental basket cases, even without the massive industry or the advanced technology. Of course, much of the damage is due to rape and pillage of their resources by developed countries, as I know you would point out.

But it's amazing what large populations armed with little more than hand tools, rusty chainsaws, fire, and ancient Toyota pickups can do to an ecosystem.

Some of the worst damage comes from their actions as they systematically and relentlessly degrade the land and water in search of daily survival.

[rwwff]

Think of it as giving the lichens a whole new field of fun...

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', ' ')Impoverished populations are also extremely harmful to the environment in their own unique ways. For example, they poach endangered game. Participate in illegal logginig. Strip hillsides of firewood, causing severe erosion and mudslides. Overgraze marginal land, exacerbating desertification. Dump toxic chemicals and used motor oil directly on the ground. And so forth.

[joewp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')But it's amazing what large populations armed with little more than hand tools, rusty chainsaws, fire, and ancient Toyota pickups can do to an ecosystem.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', ' ')Or is the devestation really brought about by the over population due to industrial/technology advances in food production, disease control, goods availability etc.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')Unlimited free energy would not make us any smarter. Or change any other human characteristics.