MrBill, your posts are well written and indicate a knowledge of the inner workings of many aspects or our economy.
I really appreciate people here, like yourself, who know WTF they are talking about, although I may not agree with all of it. Your insights are enlightening to me, at least.
My gripe is that the health care in the US is priced unrealistically. Not many Americans can afford their prices. Somebody is making a killing in this industry of the backs of middle class Americans and small business and it makes me sick. GM and Ford are going bankrupt, in part, due to health costs.
At what point does a pharmaceutical company or insurance company say "wow, we're making a killing this year, maybe we should hold off on price increases"? Never.
Evidence is the 10% per annum increase in costs, every year, regardless of other mitigating factors.
About the "free" healthcare. The income limits to receive free care are so low as to be ridiculous. I fall in the "make too much money" category, yet I can't afford what most people call health insurance.
Nor can I afford to pay for a serious illness or, Hawkman forbid, a surgery. It would bankrupt my family most likely.
The prices they charge are out of reach of most Americans if not insured. Like I pointed out in my previous post my wife and I are college educated "white collar" professionals. I can only imagine it would be much worse for people who make less.
Seems like, from my experience, the people who receive free or subsidized healthcare are already on some type of government assistance, or illegal aliens.
There is no safety net for middle class Americans who don't have insurance. Reference my point about half of all bankruptcies in this country due to medical bills.
That's a criminal injustice. Its also called the free market. Those that can pay, get. Those that can't get reamed. I'm okay with that in principle, but when I'm being bankrupted so a doctor can buy a 16 y/o a brand new BMW SUV (anectdotal) it pisses me off.
When our healthcare system went to a "for profit" model run by corporations, all concern for patients went out the window. Corporations exist to make a profit. They don't care about the consequences unless it costs them money. Even then, they figure out a breakeven and do their destructive behavior anyway (Ford Pinto).
And I'm not blaming MD's here. I see it as a problem with corporate un-personhood. Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, medical device companies, HMOs -- all profit driven. Great if you're a member of the investment class.
If you're not get stuffed. I guess that is the message.
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What's Really Propping Up The Economy
Re: What's Really Propping Up The Economy
by Roy » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 08:17:17
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Re: What's Really Propping Up The Economy
by MrBill » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 09:05:43
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Roy', '
')When our healthcare system went to a "for profit" model run by corporations, all concern for patients went out the window. Corporations exist to make a profit. They don't care about the consequences unless it costs them money. Even then, they figure out a breakeven and do their destructive behavior anyway (Ford Pinto).
And I'm not blaming MD's here. I see it as a problem with corporate un-personhood. Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, medical device companies, HMOs -- all profit driven. Great if you're a member of the investment class.
If you're not get stuffed. I guess that is the message.
')When our healthcare system went to a "for profit" model run by corporations, all concern for patients went out the window. Corporations exist to make a profit. They don't care about the consequences unless it costs them money. Even then, they figure out a breakeven and do their destructive behavior anyway (Ford Pinto).
And I'm not blaming MD's here. I see it as a problem with corporate un-personhood. Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, medical device companies, HMOs -- all profit driven. Great if you're a member of the investment class.
If you're not get stuffed. I guess that is the message.
Points taken. As I said, it seems grossly unfair to me to pay into a healthcare pool during your working life, while you are young and fit, and then lose your benefits when you're older and less elligible, just because you lose your job. Healthcare should be portable. But that is not a failing of the market. That is vested interests that prevent change. Some of those vested interests may be political as well as economical.
Again I see it as part of an overall failure of the US to turn into a real democracy instead of a two party state where lobbies and special interest groups have the ability to 'deliver' blocks of union workers, teachers, doctors & nurses, etc. votes, or in fact to campaign against refomers who might make useful changes to the system.
But I am not an expert on any of these issues least of all healthcare, but it does seem to be the adage, build it and they will come, in the case of specialist hospitals and clinics, as well as ordering expensive diagnostics and over the top treatments either in order to avoid being sued by patients for malpractice or in fact because the patients demand it.
You do not want a 60 Minutes team in your waiting room doing a story on why you would not order the 100th test for little Billy when just down the road such a test costs $100.000 and has a 1% chance of success, but if it saves just one life it is worth it! Meanwhile diseases and illnesses caused by obesity and substance abuse are far more likely to kill many more people prematurely than rare genetic conditions.
But any thought to rationalize the system is crude and driven by greed, which is why hospitals are spending thousands at one end of the ward to try to help women get pregnant or deliver preemies, while just down the hall they are doing trimester abortions for teenagers and those that just do not want children. Meanwhile those couples that might like to adopt are either too old or put on long waiting lists. Just some of the inconsistancies that none the less drive up costs.
However, let us look at returns in the stock market. A quick look at the S&P 500 shows a return of 5.61% YTD. However, a sector by sector analysis shows a return of +56.04% for agriculture products sector and -30.52% for Internet retailers. Everything is in between, but whether above or below, they all regress to the mean eventually. I can assure you the drug companies in my portfolio have not outperformed since I bought them!
The only one in the top 10 of the index is drug retailers at +18.91%, and that is not the drug makers themselves who are beleaguered with empty pipelines, competition from generics and under pressure from the FDA and from class action lawsuits.
As a matter of fact, automobile manufacturers and department stores are also in the top 10 at +26.25% and +29.34% respectively. So some speculation that Ford and GM will offload their health and pension obligations on Joe Taxpayer, while Jane Shopper keeps on spending?
No health insurance companies or health providers show up in the top 10. But I am sure if there was a medical doctor index or lawyer index that they would also be good value plays for the long term investor? ; - )
The bottomline is that we are all running faster and faster to stay in the same place, and I do not know why, or where or when it will end? Could be something to do with 1, 3, 6, 9, which are not Fibonacci numbers, but the population increases in billions since 100 years ago extrapolated out for the next 25+ years. More workers, less natural resources, more competition, less relative compensation, more running to stay in one place even without poor government and bad policy choices that we seem to have no shortage of either?
Last edited by MrBill on Wed 20 Sep 2006, 09:21:53, edited 3 times in total.
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
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Re: What's Really Propping Up The Economy
by seahorse » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 09:07:03
If there's a recession or a depression, healthcare costs will have to come down, bc people won't be able to afford the private insurance, won't be able to self-pay, and medicare will not be able to cover everyone. I don't know what the breaking point is, but as a lawyer who deals with lots of uninsured people with health problems, it can't be too far off in the future. Further, this new medicare prescription benefit plan passed in the US is UNFUNDED! This will turn out to be a nightmare. Further, sorry for no links, but Medicare and Madicaid could be in the red as early as 2010! NIGHTMARE, and all this coming with horrendous twin deficits and a housing bust. The system is out of balance, and it will eventually get back in balance. The fact that foriegn investments were not enough to cover our deficit spending last month is a bad sign.
Here's an article on Medicare funding problems and problems it poses for the US economy. Incudes discussion of the unfunded Medicare Prescription Drug Plan.
Medicare Article
Here's an article on Medicare funding problems and problems it poses for the US economy. Incudes discussion of the unfunded Medicare Prescription Drug Plan.
Medicare Article
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Re: What's Really Propping Up The Economy
by Loki » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 12:27:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')
Again I see it as part of an overall failure of the US to turn into a real democracy instead of a two party state where lobbies and special interest groups have the ability to 'deliver' blocks of union workers, teachers, doctors & nurses, etc. votes, or in fact to campaign against refomers who might make useful changes to the system.
')
Again I see it as part of an overall failure of the US to turn into a real democracy instead of a two party state where lobbies and special interest groups have the ability to 'deliver' blocks of union workers, teachers, doctors & nurses, etc. votes, or in fact to campaign against refomers who might make useful changes to the system.
Where are you getting this notion that the unions control the political system here in the US?
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Re: What's Really Propping Up The Economy
by EnergyUnlimited » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 13:32:00
It is very likely, that extorsionate health care system together with few other parasite professions will get bust any time soon.
PO will help to materialise it.
I do not see, how this health care system, which charges pensioners exorbitant money for simple daily care tasks may survive any significant social unrest.
In respect of elderly people maintainance, there is a simple solution.
When we are young and we abandon our children, we are expected to pay child maintainance.
In principle, there is nothing what can stop elderly parents to sue children for maintainance as well, should they refuse to help or failing so, to pay for help voluntarily.
Wealthy elderly people have also another option: Write a will for animal charity, should children turn useless.
Regarding doctors: Except of obligatory company medicals, I had never visited a doctor other than dentist for last 20 years or so.
PS. My wife had made them much mess, when she refused to give a birth in hospital, claiming that it is not a medical event.
PO will help to materialise it.
I do not see, how this health care system, which charges pensioners exorbitant money for simple daily care tasks may survive any significant social unrest.
In respect of elderly people maintainance, there is a simple solution.
When we are young and we abandon our children, we are expected to pay child maintainance.
In principle, there is nothing what can stop elderly parents to sue children for maintainance as well, should they refuse to help or failing so, to pay for help voluntarily.
Wealthy elderly people have also another option: Write a will for animal charity, should children turn useless.
Regarding doctors: Except of obligatory company medicals, I had never visited a doctor other than dentist for last 20 years or so.
PS. My wife had made them much mess, when she refused to give a birth in hospital, claiming that it is not a medical event.
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Re: What's Really Propping Up The Economy
by MrBill » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 14:17:34
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')
Again I see it as part of an overall failure of the US to turn into a real democracy instead of a two party state where lobbies and special interest groups have the ability to 'deliver' blocks of union workers, teachers, doctors & nurses, etc. votes, or in fact to campaign against refomers who might make useful changes to the system.
')
Again I see it as part of an overall failure of the US to turn into a real democracy instead of a two party state where lobbies and special interest groups have the ability to 'deliver' blocks of union workers, teachers, doctors & nurses, etc. votes, or in fact to campaign against refomers who might make useful changes to the system.
Where are you getting this notion that the unions control the political system here in the US?
traditional democrat support comes from the unions, plus no one will take on the teacher's unions over education. they do not control politics, they deliver block votes in swing states. I am not even American (okay 25%), but even I know that? would you like to argue over the definition of pedantic as well? perhaps my grammar?
The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
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