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The 'Miki' Poll

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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What to do with Miki?

Poll ended at Thu 28 Sep 2006, 18:16:47

Give her a separate sub-forum?
10
No votes
Ban her ass...
14
No votes
Ask her to keep posts to 5000 words or less?
6
No votes
Give her a Congressional Medal of Honor?
18
No votes
Cave in like PMS?
2
No votes
Thank her for giving us hell...
16
No votes
 
Total votes : 66

Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby Jack » Thu 31 Aug 2006, 23:42:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '
')
I have to disagree on that point....the entirety of the Arab World and the non-Arab/Persian part of the Middle East do care.

(snip)

If there is going to be all out war in the Middle East it will start with the Israel/Palestine issue and I believe we came pretty darned close just recently.


Thank you for a most interesting report.

That said, there's caring...and then there's caring. It's one thing to get emotionally worked up; and quite another to open the checkbook and write meaningfully large checks. Moreover, if they care - why not bring them over to their countries? I notice they do not.

As for the P. situation starting war in the ME - I've no doubt your're right.
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 31 Aug 2006, 23:45:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')History certainly seems to support this view.

And what great entertainment they provide! :lol:
You are such a troll! Beats playing Grand Theft Auto.
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 31 Aug 2006, 23:54:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')oreover, if they care - why not bring them over to their countries? I notice they do not.


There needs to be a distinction that I'm not sure you understand or at least not conveying: Arabs and Arab governments. The Arabs, as noted by rockdoc, care very very much about the Palestinian conflict. It has brought thousands to join the ranks of al-Qaida and the like even though they weren't born under the oppression, but instead because of their desire to seek justice. Millions others, while not officially members, condone the likes of those groups, not for their actions and methods, but for their goals-one of which is Israel/Palestine. These groups would not be able to operate at all if it weren't for the tacit support or condoning of those groups in the region.

The governments on the other hand are much much different. They are almost all totalitarian. They are only there for themselves, their power and keeping themselves in power. To do this, they must play the Pal card- here's some money, etc etc. But as you may or may not have noticed, Arab countries don't have much to work with so they have pretty crappy economies. The last thing they need is more poor people in their country, eating up their resources.

Arab governments play the Pals, just like all governments.
Arab people love the Pals, donating millions upon millions every year and forcing their governments to donate even more.
I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 01 Sep 2006, 00:41:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('woffman', 'T')he site is getting way off track.


The Open Forum is supposed to be off-track.

That 's what it is for....
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby Miki » Fri 01 Sep 2006, 12:54:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')oreover, if they care - why not bring them over to their countries? I notice they do not.


There needs to be a distinction that I'm not sure you understand or at least not conveying: Arabs and Arab governments. The Arabs, as noted by rockdoc, care very very much about the Palestinian conflict. It has brought thousands to join the ranks of al-Qaida and the like even though they weren't born under the oppression, but instead because of their desire to seek justice. Millions others, while not officially members, condone the likes of those groups, not for their actions and methods, but for their goals-one of which is Israel/Palestine. These groups would not be able to operate at all if it weren't for the tacit support or condoning of those groups in the region.


Absolutely. Mekrob and Rockdoc123 were right on target. The Arab people are rarely in agreement with the Arab governments these days. The Arab governments care as little about the Palestinians as they care about their own people.

Most of those governments have not been democratically elected and they just do what the US wants them to do to prevent the US from inventing an excuse to invade them and impose "democracy" (ie, regime change that favors US interests) in their places. After all, they know this is what the US did with Irak, and what it wants to do with Syria and Iran (the only governments that still oppose its whims). It's a no brainer: the US wants to subdue Arabs and do whatever it wants with their resources. Typical imperialism.

Interestingly, most Americans that have been to the ME are better able to see things from the Arab perspective and to realize the lies of the US government. I hope that tells the people in this forum something about their own assumptions of the siuation in the ME. It would be great for all of you to talk with people that have lived in the ME before making rigid judgements about the topic.
Last edited by Miki on Fri 01 Sep 2006, 13:40:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby lateStarter » Fri 01 Sep 2006, 14:22:32

Miki,

You are a bad girl! Bad, bad, bad... Rule number 1 was: you are not allowed to post to this thread, you were supposed to be RO...

All your responses should go in your 'RE:' thread...

A question for your 'RE:' thread - Are you as indignant about what is happening in Sudan, Chad, Sri Lanka, and 'the rest of the cursed places' as you are about those suffering in the Middle East? Or is your concern for humankind 'somehow' limited?

Regards...
We have been brought into the present condition in which we are unable neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them. - Livy
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby mekrob » Fri 01 Sep 2006, 14:44:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i') know im wasting my time and i have tried to get her to talk about peakoil to no avail.


That brings up a question for Miki: How did you get on this site and why do you post ~25-30 posts a day? This seems to be your favorite site, yet you write nothing directly involving oil or its depletion, just Israel vs. Arabs and so forth. Do you even know what Peak Oil is?
I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 15:13:24

Bringing this up again to get Miki to answer...
I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby Miki » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 15:46:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lateStarter', 'M')iki,

You are a bad girl! Bad, bad, bad... Rule number 1 was: you are not allowed to post to this thread, you were supposed to be RO...


Rule number 1 for me is: I am the only one that can tell "me" what to do :), unless I break the law, which I haven't.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ll your responses should go in your 'RE:' thread...


Well, the best of the BS was being posted in this thread, so I couldn't help myself.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') question for your 'RE:' thread - Are you as indignant about what is happening in Sudan, Chad, Sri Lanka, and 'the rest of the cursed places' as you are about those suffering in the Middle East? Or is your concern for humankind 'somehow' limited?


No, my concern is not limited, but I am better informed about the ME and I live in the ME, and I am Lebanese...does that explain it? :).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')egards...


Why do you always write me letter-like posts? I think it's funny :). I also think your fixation on me is funny. Are you single?

Mekrob: I have explained this before. Someone posted an e-mail that I wrote in this site. Then someone from this site e-mail me calling my attention to the post. I was just going to read it and leave, but when I saw the compassionate educated responses of some of the posters here, I couldn't help myself and I replied...and that's the story :). Initially all that motivated me was the possibility of raising awareness about the things that are not reported in the American media. Then I got indignated by the insensitivity and the ignorance of some of the posters here, and frustration can be a strong motivator. If you add that to my love for analysis and debate and my lifelong interest in social justice, Voila!: the perfect combination to get me hooked :). I also have to give credit to some of the posters here who make it all the more pleasurable with their sharp remarks and sense of humor.

As for the 25 posts/day, I was posting that many during the war, because I couldn't go out. After the war, I was also going out very little for almost 2 weeks because there was a shortage of gas and the highway had been closed, so *every* car, truck, ambulance,convoy, and anything else that moves was using an old road. As a result, it would take hours under the heat to get anywhere. As I'm on vacation, I don't need to subject myself to that torture cause I don't need to drive unless necessary.

You'll notice that my posts have diminished a lot in the last week or so, as the roads get better, and one can mobilize better :).

As for PO, I confess my sin: I don't know much about it, and none of you has been gracious enough to introduce me to the topic. And please don't send me to read the intro :). I can't promise that I'll get interested in PO, but you can try :).

I don't have the bad habit of talking about stuff that I'm not informed about though, so I'd need to catch up a bit before posting anything anyway.

Hope that addresses all your apprehensions about me :)
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 17:57:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can't promise that I'll get interested in PO, but you can try Smile


It's really quite simple. Oil production goes up and then comes down. From most accurate analysis, it seems as though we are approaching 'Peak Oil', that is the point at which the world produces the most amount of oil in a given amount of time and which can never be overtaken. From there, it will stay about flat for a few years depending upon conditions and then will fall with few interruptions until the production rate becomes zero. It's all about rates, not necessarily reserves.

What it means is that oil has been used to make our lives so great and to make so many many more lives. Before oil, there were about 1 billion people (or something like that). Since then, it has followed the production of oil, more or less in an exponential way. This is because it made economic times good enough to have more children, it makes medicine to keep those alive, plastics to keep us alive and enjoy life, fuel to transport necessities such as food and water from faraway locations to your house, and to make the food (fertilizers are made from NG which is associated with oil and oil makes pesticides).

In other words, without an increasing supply of oil or another form of energy, we could not sustain the increase in population around the world. Instead, the decrease in oil and energy will require a proportional (more or less) decrease in the size of the human population. If you aren't rich now, don't expect your life to be much better. If you're not in a rich nation now, don't expect to live much longer. If you have enemies with nuclear weapons, you're fucked (ie. ya Lubnan, etc).

A good way to think about its effects on you would be that Israel imports 99% of their oil and their domestic oil reserves will still run out in only a few years. Their oil imports come from Central Asian and such nations and thus can't be relied on too well. Surrounded by neighbors, they know they need water (Litani) and oil.

Syria has a good bit of oil (~4.5 bln barrels) and to a lesser extent so does Egypt (Jordan, Lebanon, and Palestine have virtually none). Syria's oil is in the North East of the nation, in the (Iraqi/Syrian) desert and thus to acquire it, the IDF would have to pass through Damascus and the main part of Syria. The best way to do that would be to gain a foothold upon the mountains, from which would be a good area to attack from but even better because then they wouldn't have to acquire it when fuel supplies are shaky.

In short- Oil won't be running out for a while, but it will be running short. This will cause aggressive oil consuming nations to be even more aggressive and demanding of oil and fuels. Genocide and theft will be on a grand scale, one which will dwarf even WWII in which ~75 million died. Over our lifetimes, hundreds of millions will likely parish in war and possibly even more in starvation.

If this doesn't get your heart racing, you don't have a heart.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') have explained this before. Someone posted an e-mail that I wrote in this site. Then someone from this site e-mail me calling my attention to the post. I was just going to read it and leave, but


Ok, I don't get that. Did someone accidentally send you an email saying you wrote on this site? Or did you write on this site and then the email came? You confused me on your wording...
I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 18:02:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'A')nd who is the cause of the problems there?
ME and US I suggest.


No, it's always been us and them.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 18:13:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '
')Oil won't be running out for a while, but it will be running short. This will cause aggressive oil consuming nations to be even more aggressive and demanding of oil and fuels. Genocide and theft will be on a grand scale, one which will dwarf even WWII in which ~75 million died. Over our lifetimes, hundreds of millions will likely parish in war and possibly even more in starvation.

If this doesn't get your heart racing, you don't have a heart.
nicely put, mekrob. Another aspect of this that has been discussed is the question of what will happen to human rights and liberal/progressive notions of fair play and social justice when TSHTF?
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 18:19:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'h')undreds of millions will likely parish


Only the village idiots.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby mekrob » Fri 08 Sep 2006, 11:10:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'h')undreds of millions will likely parish


Only the village idiots.


Come to America. We have 300 million village idiots and it grows by 2.5 million a year.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nother aspect of this that has been discussed is the question of what will happen to human rights and liberal/progressive notions of fair play and social justice when TSHTF?


There's very little chance there will be much. Besides, with all of the genocidal wars, clusterbombs in Iraq and Lebanon and Palestine, etc, one could make a case there was hardly any human rights. That can't bode well for the future.
I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby Z » Fri 08 Sep 2006, 11:15:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'M')oreover, if they care - why not bring them over to their countries? I notice they do not.


Because their country is Palestine. Why do you think they want to leave in the first place ? Because Israel make their lives miserable ? That another reason to stay.

I found it strange that americans cannot understand that other people are also patriots.
Freedom is up to the length of the chain.
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby Miki » Fri 08 Sep 2006, 12:13:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I')t's really quite simple. Oil production goes up and then comes down. From most accurate analysis, it seems as though we are approaching 'Peak Oil', that is the point at which the world produces the most amount of oil in a given amount of time and which can never be overtaken. From there, it will stay about flat for a few years depending upon conditions and then will fall with few interruptions until the production rate becomes zero. It's all about rates, not necessarily reserves.


Thanks for the summary Mekrob :). I did not understand everything though. If it's not about reserves, why can't they produce more oil?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n other words, without an increasing supply of oil or another form of energy, we could not sustain the increase in population around the world.


But the world survived before all that oil was needed and used, right?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you're not in a rich nation now, don't expect to live much longer. If you have enemies with nuclear weapons, you're fucked (ie. ya Lubnan, etc).


So you're assuming that those that don't have oil will starve, unless they produce their own food, right?

And if the rich nations will be OK because they produce their own food, then what's the need to nuke others? And what for if many of those others (eg, Lebanon) don't have oil or food to be stolen?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n short- Oil won't be running out for a while, but it will be running short.


And what is the aprox amount of time that this process would take?

More interestingly, if the situation is so critical, why aren't Europeans speeding up their transition to alternative sources of energy? If I'm not wrong, they have less oil and military power than the US, right?

And why isn't the US preparing its people for this? Cause stealing oil and food through war crimes won't be enough in the long term, right? At some point all that will run out too. And the American economy will go to the toilet. And even the rich countries will start starving. Right?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')k, I don't get that. Did someone accidentally send you an email saying you wrote on this site? Or did you write on this site and then the email came? You confused me on your wording...

1-I sent an e-mail to my friends and acquaintances in the US.
2-Someone that received that e-mail posted my e-mail and my e-mail address in this forum.
3-Someone from this forum e-mailed me commenting on my post. That's how I came to know of that post.

Clearer?
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby nwildmand » Fri 08 Sep 2006, 17:19:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', ' ')If it's not about reserves, why can't they produce more oil?


because oil is a finite resource and we have used ~1/2 of it up by most accounts. new oil discoverys will come online but the rate of discoverys has dropped significantly as we are running out of places to look for oil. the biggest oil discovery happened over 30 years ago. couple that with the fact that most of the places we get the oil have matured and are now fully in decline is the reason we will never produce as much oil as we have the past 2 years. we are at the top of the peak and the world is going to have to live with less oil.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut the world survived before all that oil was needed and used, right?


before we used that oil the population was held around 1 billion. once we started using oil the population skyrocketed because a gallon of gas can do the work of 100 men. the green revolution was a result of cheap and widley availiable energy. the result of those things is we are able to prop up the population by being able to over produce food. this ended around 2000 as far as i can tell as food stocks world wide have fallen sharply.

it gets even better. now food prices will be directly tied to the price of oil as sowing, growing, fertilizing, harvesting, shipping, processing and then shipping again all use massive amounts of oil and energy. another way food will be tied to oil is from biofuels. biofuels take food that could be used for consumption and are made into gasoline and deisel. ~20% of americas corn crop (by far the largest producer of corn) is already being turned into fuel and it is only a drop in the bucket when compared with current consumption.
more and more biofuels will come online as oil gets more expensive
and scarce so there will be much less food to go around. to put it into perspective 1 car tank of biofuels has enough calories to feed 1 person for 1 year.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I')f you're not in a rich nation now, don't expect to live much longer.


not quite true. just expect to get much poorer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I')f you have enemies with nuclear weapons, you're fucked (ie. ya Lubnan, etc).


that remains to be seen. im a doomer but i dont think about nukes that much.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', ' ')So you're assuming that those that don't have oil will starve, unless they produce their own food, right?

this is true, but they will have to do it with very expensive oil or by hand. it also has a lot to do with how densly populated your country is and how fertile it is.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'A')nd if the rich nations will be OK because they produce their own food,

maybe, maybe not. it once again depends on their carrying capacity and thier ability to export something worth its value in food. its also more like saying your nation will be rich because it can produce more food than it needs.

the 2 questions above can be simplified. if you have to import major portions of your food and your oil your fucked. in the long run it will be more important to grow your own food because all the oil will run out evenually.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', ' ')then what's the need to nuke others?

i dont know and i dont think about it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'A')nd what for if many of those others (eg, Lebanon) don't have oil or food to be stolen?

my feeling is they will be left to fend for themselves. a major part of peakoil is the dieoff that it will bring. if you dont have anything the world wont be interested in you. they will worry about feeding themselves. even if we were worried for thier welfare we probably wont have the resourses food or fuel to help them. poor overpopulated places with no resources will bear the brunt of the overshoot correction.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I')n short- Oil won't be running out for a while, but it will be running short.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'A')nd what is the aprox amount of time that this process would take?

running out? i would say not in our lifetime. oil is so dense with energy humans will do almost anything to get to it. running short? some including my self think we have already peaked and will be running short on oil very soon. i think the world will be a very different place by 2012 and i bet most here will agree with me. bottom line is nobody can predict the future but the doomer scenarios are very disturbing.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'M')ore interestingly, if the situation is so critical, why aren't Europeans speeding up their transition to alternative sources of energy?

because people are stupid. many are trying to make a transition. sweden and finland both have zero import mandates. france has the most nuclear per capita, germany has the most windmills per capita. the problem is the shear scale that is needed. there will never be the exponential growth required to offset the shortcomings of oil imports. oil has the most energy for its density and size. alternatives dont even come close.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'A')nd why isn't the US preparing its people for this?
because people are stupid. carter said we need to end our addiction to foreign oil. bush has said the same thing on a couple of occasions. the problem is scale. what is needed to replace oil is so mind boggling in size that most people can not comprehend it. that does not even consider transportation. semis will not run on electricity. nothing can replace oil.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'C')ause stealing oil and food through war crimes won't be enough in the long term, right?

not for the us. not for anybody.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'A')t some point all that will run out too.

yes it will.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', ' ')And the American economy will go to the toilet.

yes it will.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', ' ')And even the rich countries will start starving. Right?

for the most part yes. like i have said before it really depends on what your population density is, the carrying capacity of your lands. and what you can export if you even can. starving is not a worry of mine since most of land in my area has less than 4 people per square mile and we have very fertile land.

miki you should really study peak oil in depth. you live in the 26th most densly populated country on the planet and are way beyond your carrying capacity. you import way way way to much of your food. country depends on tourism and the service industry which will be the very first things to disapear once peakoil sets in. your country has little if anything for tangible exports. peakoil will hit lebanon very very hard. you need to really consider moving back to peru while you still can.

if you have any questions invovling any of this dont be afraid to ask. oil and its effects on society are intertwined and fairly complicated. oil reaches into every aspect of modern life.

oil is the lynchpin that holds our over populated earth together and we are running out.
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 08 Sep 2006, 17:47:10

succinctly, and rather terrifyingly put, nwildman. But I'm thinking that the recent fall off of oil prices is maybe an indication that ASPO was correct in putting the Peak out to 2009. All that it will matter, though, is a few more extra good years. We are still left with the problem of no effective replacement for oil. Miki, You may wish you hadn't come here.
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Re: The 'Miki' Poll

Unread postby nwildmand » Fri 08 Sep 2006, 18:26:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 's')uccinctly, and rather terrifyingly put, nwildman.


thank you pms. im a peakoil loudmoth in real life so i better know my shit.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', ' ')But I'm thinking that the recent fall off of oil prices is maybe an indication that ASPO was correct in putting the Peak out to 2009.


it came down just as expected. always does after labor day. i think we are really on a plateau that started in 04 and will last to 09.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A')ll that it will matter, though, is a few more extra good years. We are still left with the problem of no effective replacement for oil. Miki, You may wish you hadn't come here.


quite true we have a few good years left. i still say that in 2012 all bets are off.
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Coal
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 03:00:00
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