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Why are all eyes on America?

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Unread postby trespam » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 01:03:50

EU collection of countries: true, but bound together by a single currency. Becoming more a federation as time progresses it seems. The US: a collection of states that are almost countries. In fact, the EU countries probably get along as well as the states of the US.

Anyway, I think in terms of trading region. Think Americans (in particular NAFTA), Europe, and Asia.

US contributions: it could very well be that the EU is contributing comparable to the US on a per-capita basis. The US is in fact pretty low on the list of countries when contributions are considered from a per-capita or per-GDP perspective.
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Unread postby Jack » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 01:08:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', '
')US contributions: it could very well be that the EU is contributing comparable to the US on a per-capita basis. The US is in fact pretty low on the list of countries when contributions are considered from a per-capita or per-GDP perspective.


Now, there you go again, spoiling a perfectly good diatribe by bringing facts into the discussion! Shame! :-D
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Unread postby trespam » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 01:15:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')e are going to have to give some of it back.


Frankly, I'd rather not. The first politician that suggests giving anything back can expect to be trounced at the polls.



I don't think MonteQuest is implying that we are going to give something away. The point is that we've shot our wad. We're spent. We're living on borrowed money. We've outsourced much of our basic manufacturing and replaced with a service economy. Service workers make much less than manufacturing (other than some services like financial), but these service workers making less can almost afford to live the high life by purchasing imported goods made using much lower wages. Except that we are now hitting bottom. We can't afford to borrow much longer. So we won't be able to purchase as many of these imported goods. The standard of living will decrease in the US. At the same time, the Chinese, for example, will have to create their own consumer class. Given that they are starting at a much lower level, they should be able to create a consumer class that will allow them to make up at least part of what is no longer purchased by the US.

So in summary, the US has exported manufacturing, then services, then inflation, and investment. And then, when the world finally tires of loaning us money, the dollar will tumble, interest rates may scream higher, housing will tumble, and the US standard of living will drop. Where did it go? We exported it.

It won't happen overnight unless there is a severe dollar and financial crisis. There could be. We've got the house of cards all built up. All we need is a good oil shock. A real one. The Iranians are good at doing that.
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Unread postby trespam » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 01:17:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', '
')US contributions: it could very well be that the EU is contributing comparable to the US on a per-capita basis. The US is in fact pretty low on the list of countries when contributions are considered from a per-capita or per-GDP perspective.


Now, there you go again, spoiling a perfectly good diatribe by bringing facts into the discussion! Shame! :-D


Damn facts. I am pretty sure we're fairly low contributors on a per-capita basis. But the differences is that the US has made HUGE investments in the military, which Europe relied on for what? almost 50 years? The soviets would have owned all of Europe without the US.
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Unread postby Guest » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 05:28:47

All of these are close, even very close, but no cigar

The answer that most fully sums up every aspect is this:

America presides at the head of a capitalist empire
The world economy is tied to the American economy
The US has more political power than any other nation
The US has the most deadly military

Who cares if Europe has a bigger economy, Europe doesn't have the political power the US has
It all comes down to power

And the reason we are all watching the US is because it looks like their empire is crumbling, and we don't know what they're going to do

Europe is now the bright spot in the world, like America used to be
What the US doesn't get is, yes we agree with them on freedom and civil liberties
But not the economy, politics or the environment

As such Bush now represents a regressive force in the world
He will cause WWIII unless sane Europe can stop him

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Unread postby Licho » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 08:13:37

EU has single market, it's therefore single economic entity.. Many people here would be offended if EU was called a country, but it certainly is single economic entity. No internal borders, no tariffs, and single foreign trading rules..

EU countries cannot compete with US in military, US military spending is awesome, about 1/2 of world total spending... But they have "stabilization" forces in many countries, like Kosovo and Afghanistan.

And regarding international help ..
well..
US is giving about 6.9bln dollars annual in various economic aid.

Japan 9.1 ..

And few of EU's 25 countries...
Germany 5.6
France 6.3
Denmark 1.3
UK 4.5
Netherlands 3.5
Sweden 1.7

As you can see, EU gives MUCH more than USA on foreign aid even in absolute terms..
In per capita terms US does very bad, 3x less than Canada, 4x less than Japan, 5x less than France or 11x less than Denmark and 15x less than Netherlands..
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Unread postby Jack » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 09:28:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'I')t won't happen overnight unless there is a severe dollar and financial crisis. There could be. We've got the house of cards all built up. All we need is a good oil shock. A real one. The Iranians are good at doing that.


Good point. There is another possibility. The Chinese RMB is, supposedly, undervalued by 40% vis-a-vis the USD. The U.S. has been applying pressue on the Chinese to unpeg their currencly and let it float.

If that happens, the price of raw materials in RMB terms plummets downward by 40%. The cost of exports jumps, hurting U.S. consumers. The value of U.S. debt held by China declines.

As you point out, we import everything, much of it from China. With a stroke of the pen, China could ignite horrific inflation within the U.S. There is a troublesome flashpoint other than Iran - Taiwan is a source of contention.

So, actually, I think the chances of a financial/dollar crises are fairly high...
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Unread postby lowem » Sun 21 Nov 2004, 23:28:38

Why were everybody's eyes on Britain the last time round, and on Rome sometime before that?

Because they were The Empire, that's why.

Same thing here.
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Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 22 Nov 2004, 03:51:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')uddenly, we are going to have to share with the rest of the world our standard of living. And guess what? There isn't enough to go around.
There are two problems with this statement.

First, the US is <b>not</b> the highest standard of living in the world. Much of Europe enjoys longer lifetime, better health care, higher rates of education, lower teen pregnancy rates, and the ultimate subjective measure: when surveyed, they are more likely to <b>say</b> they are happy and fulfilled.

Second, those very nations that by most measures have a higher standard of living than the US <b>also</b> use fewer resources to attain that standard. Some of them use one-quarter the per-capita energy that the US does!

So although a certain level of energy use is the hallmark of modern civilization, it apparently is not well correlated with standard of living.

There may well be enough to go around. There isn't enough to go around only if you assume the entire world must become über-consumers, like Americans are.
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Unread postby Freud » Mon 22 Nov 2004, 20:13:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marek', 'T')he US is NOT the biggest economy. The 2003 US GDP is 11,000 trillion dollars while the EU-25 is 11,017 trillion. This is very close yet it shows that the US is no longer the only economic superpower.



BUT.... you try to get the EU to agree to anything distinctively hardcore amongst the members versus the US Senate and House....


You'll never get that unless the sub continent dispels with the patriotism and isolationism and embraces an American styled unity like stand.

Not saying it's right or wrong....just saying.
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Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 22 Nov 2004, 20:22:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'Y')ou'll never get that unless the sub continent dispels with the patriotism and isolationism and embraces an American styled unity like stand.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '.').. the US is <b>not</b> the highest standard of living in the world. Much of Europe enjoys longer lifetime, better health care, higher rates of education, lower teen pregnancy rates, and the ultimate subjective measure: when surveyed, they are more likely to <b>say</b> they are happy and fulfilled.


So perhaps unity is not all it's chalked up to be?
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Unread postby Freud » Mon 22 Nov 2004, 21:17:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'Y')ou'll never get that unless the sub continent dispels with the patriotism and isolationism and embraces an American styled unity like stand.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '.').. the US is <b>not</b> the highest standard of living in the world. Much of Europe enjoys longer lifetime, better health care, higher rates of education, lower teen pregnancy rates, and the ultimate subjective measure: when surveyed, they are more likely to <b>say</b> they are happy and fulfilled.


So perhaps unity is not all it's chalked up to be?



Who sends who to the Mayo clinic and the UofM at Ann Arbor medical facilities....not to say that some countries don't hit upon momentary break throughs........

Ask any american student whom hasn't clung to woodshop or home economics, no matter how philosophically or socialogically challenged they are what the peaks are? For fuck's sake..... if you solely look at McDonalds employees you'll find a pool of college educated graduates whom could fulfill most entry level corporate positions..... The nation is ambition squared, and few whine about the playing field.


As for happiness..... those Europian picnics and family getogethers might be a regular hoopla fair....but they're confined to a set group of parameters in civil liberties.... and now matter how fun, bitchin', emotionally rewarding they are to you....they'll not compare to a Sunday morning sleep off from an American festivity where everyone knew their rights and exercised them to the fullest. When SHTF, these same people and even well balanced families will react instead of recieve orders from their government BECAUSE no american no matter how conservative or liberal really believes in what they're told by their government...as it fucking should be.

It took 40 plus (give or take) generations of Americans to come to that conclusion.... whether or not they ever entertained the idea on their own..... since the Independence Revolution from the same manifestation of governments you're still beholden too..it matters not...........

The seeds of individuality were planted.....

You can play the figures war, and someone will counter it....."who is happier....who is more well off"

But philosophy will suffer on your side. You're in a cage.....and though similar to the yanks.... you don't have a latch or door to get out.

It's different...you wouldn't understand.......
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Such Euro-bashing!

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 00:18:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'W')ho sends who to the Mayo clinic and the UofM at Ann Arbor medical facilities... [semi-coherent ramblings clipped...]
Whew. I'm not sure where to start. Are you defending the US, knocking Europe, or both? Are you claiming that Europeans are leaving their state-sponsored medical facilities to come to get the most expensive medical care in the world? I guess it's only the rich ones who do that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'A')sk any american student whom hasn't clung to woodshop or home economics, no matter how philosophically or socialogically challenged they are what the peaks are?
Not to mention English composition. Not sure what you're getting at here, but I'm sure it's worth understanding if you could elucidate better. Are you knocking students of woodcraft or housewives? Are you claiming that American students are socialogically (sic) challenged mountain climbers?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'i')f you solely look at McDonalds employees you'll find a pool of college educated graduates whom could fulfill most entry level corporate positions... The nation is ambition squared, and few whine about the playing field.
This seems contradictory. Are you saying people who get college degrees and work at McDonalds are ambitious? (If so, I'd hate to hear your idea of "lazy!" :-) Or are you just saying that there are too many educated people in America? (Based on the last election and the previous posting in this thread, I'd have to differ on that one! :-)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'A')s for happiness..... those Europian picnics and family getogethers might be a regular hoopla fair... but they're confined to a set group of parameters in civil liberties.... and now matter how fun, bitchin', emotionally rewarding they are to you....they'll not compare to a Sunday morning sleep off from an American festivity where everyone knew their rights and exercised them to the fullest.
Woa, such Euro-loathing! Have you actually <b>been</b> there? Don't be ashamed, few Americans travel outside their borders, and most of those who do expect the "foreign" people they meet to speak English and to have a Starbucks on every corner.

I've spent a half-dozen years outside the US, and I can say that I <b>never</b> saw a "Europian" (sic) picnic. But I did see a number of huge public protests, right out in the open, not even confined to "free speech zones!" Amazing! As an American, I was expecting everyone to get rounded up, or at least a few students shot dead. And I can tell you've not been to an Oktoberfest or harvest carnival. Heck, even the Bern onion festival was <b>way</b> too rowdy for me!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'W')hen SHTF, these same people and even well balanced families will react instead of recieve orders from their government BECAUSE no american no matter how conservative or liberal really believes in what they're told by their government...[inappropriate language deleted]<b>HA, HA, HA! Freud made a funny!</b>

The government told us Saddam had weapons and supported terrorists. Every study since says that's absolutely wrong. But the government keeps saying so anyway. <b>GUESS WHAT? MOST AMERICANS SWALLOWED THE LIE!</b> I forget the figure, and Freud isn't worth spending the research on to find it, but I seem to recall something like 65% of Americans believing that crap.

On the other hand, it seems the people of Spain (at least) proved capable of independent thought when they told their government they didn't want to be in Iraq, their government went in anyway, then the people voted them out. But I guess that's just the funny way that Europeans "recieve (sic) orders from their government."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'I')t took 40 plus (give or take) generations of Americans to come to that conclusion...Ah, I see your contempt for education and writing skills extends to math skills as well. A generation is generally regarded as 20 years. 40 generations ago, the only Americans around had no idea that a bunch of strange-looking folk were about to arrive from across the sea and take everything from them.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'I')t's different...you wouldn't understand.......Well, I must admit that I didn't understand much of what you wrote, except that you must be smoking something that would get you thrown in jail in America, but would only get you a slap on the wrist in most of those places that you seemed to imply are not very free.

I know better than to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Really. I'm turning off notifications. This thread is probably destined for the Hall of Flames anyway. PM me if you <b>really</b> want me to look at something in this thread again.
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Unread postby Licho » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 07:20:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for happiness..... those Europian picnics and family getogethers might be a regular hoopla fair....but they're confined to a set group of parameters in civil liberties.... and now matter how fun, bitchin', emotionally rewarding they are to you....they'll not compare to a Sunday morning sleep off from an American festivity where everyone knew their rights and exercised them to the fullest. When SHTF, these same people and even well balanced families will react instead of recieve orders from their government BECAUSE no american no matter how conservative or liberal really believes in what they're told by their government...as it fucking should be.

Don't live in illusion that Europeans trust their goverments, or don't care about civil liberties. In my country, it's been just 15 years since full revolution (peacefull one, none killed) that overthrow goverment, and 37 years from situation when ordinary citizens were trying to stop foreign tanks with own bodies. When did americans experience similar situations: never. And people here are still extremely suspicius. Protests and huge hundreds-thousands-people meetings are common thing across Europe, not just in France..
Just look at Ukraine's mass protests today, I didn't see it in USA after first Bush elections, which were controversial as well.

But I understand your point of view, if you live all your life in one room with huge big brother's screen that repeats "you are the best, you are the most free, you live in only true democracy, war is peace" endlessly.
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Unread postby Licho » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 07:48:46

Freud, may I ask you:
in which protests/demonstrations/acts of civil disobedience you were involved in last decade, and what was the outcome?
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Re: Such Euro-bashing!

Unread postby Freud » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 21:39:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'W')ho sends who to the Mayo clinic and the UofM at Ann Arbor medical facilities... [semi-coherent ramblings clipped...]
Whew. I'm not sure where to start. Are you defending the US, knocking Europe, or both? Are you claiming that Europeans are leaving their state-sponsored medical facilities to come to get the most expensive medical care in the world? I guess it's only the rich ones who do that.


mocking both and stating just that.....

and yes....people from all around the world are sent to the US for break though treatments in previously unmanageable diseases and ailments, some pay and some áre sponsored free of charge.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'A')sk any american student whom hasn't clung to woodshop or home economics, no matter how philosophically or socialogically challenged they are what the peaks are?
Not to mention English composition. Not sure what you're getting at here, but I'm sure it's worth understanding if you could elucidate better. Are you knocking students of woodcraft or housewives? Are you claiming that American students are socialogically (sic) challenged mountain climbers? [/quote]

You're being a cut and paste moron on that one.....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'i')f you solely look at McDonalds employees you'll find a pool of college educated graduates whom could fulfill most entry level corporate positions... The nation is ambition squared, and few whine about the playing field.
This seems contradictory. Are you saying people who get college degrees and work at McDonalds are ambitious? (If so, I'd hate to hear your idea of "lazy!" :-) Or are you just saying that there are too many educated people in America? (Based on the last election and the previous posting in this thread, I'd have to differ on that one! :-)[/quote]

I'm saying that the average education level has been heightened to a 4 year degree in the states..when it was previously a high school diploma. A large number of american college graduates are forced to temporarily work at fast food chains and undesirable positions until they can procure their sought after occupations and get into those sectors with that illustrious "first job". No one whines about it....it's just the way it is.....

You can stick your political red herring where the sun doesn't shine....it's not part of the discussion as you well know.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'A')s for happiness..... those Europian picnics and family getogethers might be a regular hoopla fair... but they're confined to a set group of parameters in civil liberties.... and now matter how fun, bitchin', emotionally rewarding they are to you....they'll not compare to a Sunday morning sleep off from an American festivity where everyone knew their rights and exercised them to the fullest.Woa, such Euro-loathing! Have you actually <b>been</b> there? Don't be ashamed, few Americans travel outside their borders, and most of those who do expect the "foreign" people they meet to speak English and to have a Starbucks on every corner. [/quote]

You don't know me....and I'm not about to pander to your ignorance on the subject by describing my life to you as you couldn't fathom what I do, where I've been and some such.

I'll say this much.....I left the US in 96 and haven't been back yet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'ve spent a half-dozen years outside the US, and I can say that I <b>never</b> saw a "Europian" (sic) picnic. But I did see a number of huge public protests, right out in the open, not even confined to "free speech zones!" Amazing! As an American, I was expecting everyone to get rounded up, or at least a few students shot dead. And I can tell you've not been to an Oktoberfest or harvest carnival. Heck, even the Bern onion festival was <b>way</b> too rowdy for me!

Well whoopdy do...you're a regular ex-pat bubble head bragging machine.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'W')hen SHTF, these same people and even well balanced families will react instead of recieve orders from their government BECAUSE no american no matter how conservative or liberal really believes in what they're told by their government...[inappropriate language deleted]<b>HA, HA, HA! Freud made a funny!</b>

The government told us Saddam had weapons and supported terrorists. Every study since says that's absolutely wrong. But the government keeps saying so anyway. <b>GUESS WHAT? MOST AMERICANS SWALLOWED THE LIE!</b> I forget the figure, and Freud isn't worth spending the research on to find it, but I seem to recall something like 65% of Americans believing that crap. [/quote]

so about half did and half didn't if we weed out the bullshit factor from your post........ hardly conclusive.......

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n the other hand, it seems the people of Spain (at least) proved capable of independent thought when they told their government they didn't want to be in Iraq, their government went in anyway, then the people voted them out. But I guess that's just the funny way that Europeans "recieve (sic) orders from their government."

The people of Spain whom forced that action are cowards. Whether they were right or wrong about not wanting to participate, once in...they were punked out by one act because they had no stomach. I spit in their general direction for sending that kind of message to would be terrorists....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'I')t took 40 plus (give or take) generations of Americans to come to that conclusion...Ah, I see your contempt for education and writing skills extends to math skills as well. A generation is generally regarded as 20 years. 40 generations ago, the only Americans around had no idea that a bunch of strange-looking folk were about to arrive from across the sea and take everything from them. [/quote]

Obviously I was incorrect to use the number 40... though 25 and 40 don't make a world of difference to the discussion.... let's just say "a long time" and leave the nit picking to others. As for your barbs about literacy skills, you know where you can insert those.... :roll:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Freud', 'I')t's different...you wouldn't understand.......Well, I must admit that I didn't understand much of what you wrote, except that you must be smoking something that would get you thrown in jail in America, but would only get you a slap on the wrist in most of those places that you seemed to imply are not very free.

I know better than to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Really. I'm turning off notifications. This thread is probably destined for the Hall of Flames anyway. PM me if you <b>really</b> want me to look at something in this thread again.[/quote]

You're an idiot...... and a poor troll. I don't care where this thread ends up, or you for that matter...I see your type of american in my travels and cringe at the loud mouth ignorance and keep my mouth shut lest the locals associate me with the drivel oozing out of your arse for a face.
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Unread postby Freud » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 21:43:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'F')reud, may I ask you:
in which protests/demonstrations/acts of civil disobedience you were involved in last decade, and what was the outcome?



what a waste of time......

"protests, demonstrations, and obedient civil disobedience"


Only a complete moron would smear their name across law enforcement watch list files for insignificant feel good hippy mongering so that when the time to really "protest, demonstrate, and be disobedient" comes, your hands are tied, and you're made.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 22:08:19

Freud and Bytesmith,

You guys are kind of off topic and heading for a flame war. Disagree with passion, but let's power down the personal attacks, ok?

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Unread postby Licho » Tue 23 Nov 2004, 23:22:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen SHTF, these same people and even well balanced families will react instead of recieve orders from their government BECAUSE no american no matter how conservative or liberal really believes in what they're told by their government...as it fucking should be.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Only a complete moron would smear their name across law enforcement watch list files for insignificant feel good hippy mongering so that when the time to really "protest, demonstrate, and be disobedient" comes, your hands are tied, and you're made.


Ok, so you are trying to say, that you know goverment is doing shit and you and all people know it, but you are too scared to do something about it, and this makes americans best suited to handle "SHTF" situation... ummm.. And when does come the right situation? When you are stripped of your rights and have no chance because whole army stands with goverment? It will be too late then.. And don't think that it cannot happen, Germans elected Hitler in democratic elections, most people were just too careless to stop it while it was still possible..

And what is "law enforcement watch list"? There are no such things here.. it would be against law to put you on something like this if you fullfill your right to protest/strike/etc. Unless you actually do great damage and got caught you are safe from police, until then, you are completely safe. Some aggressive crazy people that throw rocks at mcdonalds have problems but I never saw them in real life :-) Majority of protests are completely peacefull, if you just block a road or govermental building, police does nothing, they just wait and ensure your own safety. Protests I was involved in had immediate effect, so it was certainly worth it..
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