[markam]

You would definitely use more energy bringing the gondala back then you would save going down.

My idea. Get rid of the gondala. Strap the people to the wire and let them ride if from place to place. To get people to the top, we train teams of monkeys to pull them up. We feed the monkeys really crappy leftover food so we don't expend energy growing food for them.

I can see it now. By honey, I have to go catch the monkeytram to work.

[sciencegirl]

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.

Imagination is more important than knowledge

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds

All of these quotes are from Albert Einstein. Clueless, quote #5 is exspecially for you.

[Omnium]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sciencegirl', 'A')ny intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.

Imagination is more important than knowledge

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds

All of these quotes are from Albert Einstein. Clueless, quote #5 is exspecially for you.

[alecifel]

Answer to the question is very simple:

The amount of energy applied in hoisting the gondola up the pole (i.e. conversion of mechanical energy into potential energy for storage to be used as kinetic energy) is equal to the amount of energy expended in its descent plus entropic loss.

I thought of that (and dismissed it) when I saw robotz too. It sure would be a fun way to get around, though!!!

[sciencegirl]

I think my idea would work, #5. I am not saying it would solve the peak oil problem but it is not a bad idea. If you say it can't work then put your money were your mouth is and explain why it wouldn't work.

Ya ya I know the Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state and also the first Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

True but I am taking about using energy that is already their. Gravity. If your using gravity then your not creating energy or breaking the the law of thermodynamics.

[alecifel]

Before you can use gravity, though, you have to get to a high place to drop from.

I do believe it would be more efficient than cars, though, because you would have a lot less friction loss. But it would take a LOT of horsepower to hoist that gondola up... and then of course, there's the return trip.

[sciencegirl]

I am more into Chemistry than physics. I don't know alot about physics. I just threw this out as an idea.

Here is an example I tryed at home.

Do you remember those old hotwheels tracks. I have about 3 meters of them at home.

If I lift one end of the track 1 inch off the ground, then roll a marble down it, that marble rolls 3 meters and then another 1/2 meter further on the carpet. So if i was super small and strapped a bike to by back, then all I would have to do was climb one inch to roll 3 1/2 meters

It sounds much easier to me to climb 1 inch. I can understand others having conflicting points of view, but geez, if you do then explain yourself better.

[alecifel]

Let's keep with your bike analogy. 1 inch doesn't sound like a lot, and it isn't, of course you're only traveling 3.5 meters. (interesting mix of continental and metric, but oh well)

Now, let's say you were going to travel 3500 meters. That's 1000 times the distance, this gives us some scale. The vertical distance is 1000 inches, which would be about 85 feet or 23 meters. Strap your bike to your back and climb an 85 foot pole. Then ride your bike 3500 meters. I predict that you will only be huffing and puffing about 10% less after scaling the pole with the bike, than by riding it two miles.

Think of how much harder it is to tow a trailer up a steep hill than it is to pull it on level ground. Now imagine towing one vertically. That is how much more energy hoisting requires versus wheeled travel. All the energy is expended in the climb, gravity expends that potential energy as kinetic energy for the rest, but overall your energy savings is not of much significance.

Good idea though, keep going with it.

[sciencegirl]

Think about scale, if it works with a hotwheels track, what about making it bigger. Let us times it by 10,000.

1inchx10,000 = 10,000 inches (254 meters)

3.5 meters x 10,000 = 35,000 meters (35 kilometers)

So say if I wanted to travel to a town 35 km away by bicycle, I could either pedal 35 km or I can climb 254 meters and glide all the way down.

I think it would be much easier to glide 35 km

[sciencegirl]

So to lift you up the first poll if you had a pulley system and say 2 transit workers pulling up you and your bike for a buck it could be done. If I am 135 lbs and my bike is 20 lbs thats 155lbs. With a pulley system it would feel like a lot less weight to the workers. I'd buy that for a dollar.

[alecifel]

I'm hip if it'll work.. like I said what a fun way to travel!! But I don't think the math will work. I'll run some foot-pounds on it. The question is: how far does your marble roll on a level track if you apply the same force required to lift it 1 inch as a horizontal push?

I will play with this and see if it is feasable. Imagine taking a roller coaster to get TO the amusement park haha.

[sciencegirl]

I don't know if it would be feasable because it would take alot of resources to build something that large scale. The biggest factor I think is friction. If you roll a marble of a floor it goes pretty far, if you roll it on carpet it doesn't. The vehicle itself would have to be light weight. For example a aluminum gocart, on a very hard flat surface. Maybe incorperate aerodynamics, like a bullet shapped craft to cut wind resistance.

[sciencegirl]

Here is a link for a solar car, maybe a small solar powered engine to give the gocart a miniscule amount of acceleration might help as well

http://www.perc.ca/PEN/1995-05/briggs.html

[alecifel]

The least amount of drag is the suspended monorail. That is, a round tube with your gon held on by a set of clamping trolleys, lubed up with graphite or lithium grease. A bullet shape to the downhill face to minimize air resistance, etc.

The real problem would be the hoist mechanism. The benefit is not so much that it saves much energy; I really don't think it does, but that it is a FOCUSED application of energy... the power source can be external, instead of having to be transportable like contemporary transportation.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sciencegirl', 'A')t least I am trying to create solutions.

[alecifel]

OK my interest is piqued.. now I want to see where the rabbit hole goes. (darn it!)

Maybe it can be done. The trick is exploiting that fractional efficiency and then trying to expand it. (It's that marble thing. I need to get in the attic and find my hot wheels.)

Instead of turning the forum into a private brainstorm.. I welcome your thoughts --> alecifel@gmail.com

[Omnium]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sciencegirl', 'A')t least I am trying to create solutions.

[alecifel]

Fusion in a jar?

*chuckle*

Conserve natural gas! Fart in a jar.