[CARVER]

This is not about whether people should try to become fully self sufficient (when it comes to their survival). If we all would become self sufficient, then we can't possibly achieve what we can when we specialize and depend upon one another (which could improve your chances of survival, unless you can't rely on those others).

However, when energy availability becomes the limiting factor, then you probably don't want to waste it on something you can do more energy efficient, like local food production. I think we have been mostly busy saving time, but that focus could shift towards saving energy (resources). Of course we would like it much better if we would not have any limiting factors, but that just isn't the case. So you could save the energy otherwise used to transport food to you, so that the energy is available to drive you to the hospital when needed. You make a choice, since you can't do both. Growing your food locally probably is less work than running a local hospital. We are not going to do everything locally and on a small scale, but if it means doing it locally or not doing it (or something else) at all, we will probably do it locally.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')ake tires for instance. How are you going to recycle the bits of tire that are worn off as you go down the road? No matter what we do, there will always be a diminishing amount of available usable material as well as energy.

Google "Cradle to Cradle" and you find some unique ideas along these lines though. We need to design things to be reused not thrown away.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', ' ')Good point, Monte. But I would go further and say that we should aim to reuse as little as possible by making use of what we acquire for as long as possible. Ideally, reuse locally (preferably at household level). It takes energy to re-cycle and reuse.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')ee, there's the problem, calling something "bollocks" when you know so very little about it.

And claiming permaculture and related technologies can't help people in cities and towns. If you'd read "Solviva" you'd see most of the technology is geared toward town and even city life.

I'm really sorry, Wildwell, that you're not more interested. So little interested that you're not even willing to look beyond your preconceptions to see that most of what I'm promoting is very much applicable to towns and small cities. As I recall you live in a village or small city. Yet you have apparently utterly convinced yourself that none of this can help you or apparently anyone you know. Have you looked at the Dervaes Institute website? (pathtofreedom) None of this is about living in the country or having much land at all. Growbiointensive is about growing your food on the smallest amount of land possible. All of this is about what people can do on their own to help themselves and their communities.

This is why I am so nearly completely hopeless about our situation. That people are so uninterested in solutions they would rather just leap to conclusions based on - what? Nothing. Based on nothing, an impression they got somewhere that something is "bollocks."

Gridlock, I have no problem with a combined top-down, bottom-up approach. I think that would be best. But I only promote what I can do myself, and as I mentioned I have no power in government. I don't have any issue with Wildwell's approach except the fact that he is grotesquely ignorant and apparently intends to remain that way.

I'm afraid I don't personally have the strength to carry on this fight. If people can't look at beautiful websites, or read books, or really, do anything but leap to vastly ignorant conclusions, there's nothing I can do to fix the situation. Trying to convince people of things is not what I'm good at.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'S')o I see no other choice that the government(s) must educate the population and put in certain checks and balances as well as plan adequately for PO and long term sustainability.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') agree, Tonyprep. If we have no other choice than to rely on the government then we are truly doomed.

We are doomed.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'T')he answer is they will change thier mind through political pressure (IE use your votes)

[Gridlock]

"Make things to last almost forever. In reality, an old 286 computer is more comnputing capacity than most people will ever need, just slow."

Eek, a 286 that’s gonna be tough. Not that I disagree, though maybe we could build computers so that hardware upgrades are a lot easier without buying a whole new machine.

"I don't think it likely, even in a small country like New Zealand. The leaders of almost all of the main parties agree that peak oil is here or very close and yet the two biggest parties (including the governing party) welcome huge planned extra spending on roads. What on earth are they thinking? Certainly not long term."

My view is there is not much they can do at the present as any implementation of the changes we really need would be the fast-track out of office. I have seen evidence of them preparing for PO (carbon quotas for example here). When PO begins to hit people I think will be screaming for the changes. I guess the question is then whether we’ve lost the time-frame needed to transition but I think there is a lot that can be done to maximise that window of opportunity. There are many politicians who have recognised this problem, I’m sure many more will follow particularly if as Wildwell suggests use your vote, start writing to newspapers/Magazines, join groups, spend wisely.

[Cabrone]

TonyPrep wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I can't help thinking, though, that making anything is unsustainable, if it continues indefinitely. Ultimately, we need to only consume resources at their renewal rates, or lower.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cabrone', 'I') took Elephant grass as just one example of what is going on out there (why not grow it along main roads, around airfields, on derelict land etc?). Please don't forget that we also have solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, hydro-electric and nuclear plus whatever hydrocarbon reserves are left. That is more than enough to power our society if we have the will to harness it.

[Cabrone]

Although I think we both believe that society is going to take some pain in the near term I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the longer term outcome. By the way you should be OK in NZ, you have brilliant geothermal, wind and wave power all around you!

Just thought I'd stick another link to a really interesting project that is happening down in Australia, it's a solar tower and it works simply by heating air at ground level and drawing it up a 1km tower, driving turbines in the process. The people at enviromission say that they could power 200,000 homes using this plant. Really interesting and fundamentally simple idea which suits a place like Australia.

http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/technology.htm

[Gridlock]

Cabrone, that’s about the best solutions I’ve seen.

Perhaps it is easy to concentrate more on ideology than solutions themselves. Personally, I think if/when the interests of Government are wrestled from the vice grip of corporations, and people begin to wake up to the reality of an energy crisis, they can begin getting pretty radical instead of tinkering round the edges. I’m not advocating a centrally planned economy, just a lot more control measures that ensure we are producing the things that are going to sustain us in the long-term, clean energy producing sources rather than unnecessary, wasteful energy consuming crap. So we start tapping into wave, wind, nuclear, solar, re-wilding large parts of the earth, seeking to control population size by incentives, and promoting local farming and perma-culture. Whilst limiting the production/utilisation of SUVs, out-door patio heaters, short-haul flights, Sunday drives, food flown in from across the other side of the world when the country is already producing it etc. etc. If world oil production does follow an approximate bell curve, then we’ll still be producing as much oil in 20 years as we were in the 70s/80s, but it will be prohibitively expensive for many more people, probably triggering a recession/depression at some point with the current imbalance in world economy, at which point it’s probably an idea to scrap the current economic system for something else.
In the further distance, breeder reactors and even fusion are possibilities, though by this point we’ll have learnt not to get too giddy and go mental (maybe).
I see no reason for Government to interfere in our private lives or confiscate property, only in the way our economies are run. The only big dangers are resource war but we’ve seen how that turned out, and global warming, where we don’t have a clear idea how it will pan out, but we’ll be forced to deal with it indirectly through the energy crisis. That’s just my optimistic prediction that doesn’t factor in we’re all gonna die. Just be quite a bit poorer.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'b')lah blah blah

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')I can't do anything to increase my chances of survival as I don't have $1 million for the property I need in Ludi's solution other than what I'm doing. Remember I don't have any land.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')I can't do anything to increase my chances of survival as I don't have $1 million for the property I need in Ludi's solution other than what I'm doing. Remember I don't have any land.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '
')It's no good harking back to the 1950s, saying we did OK then, because we have a very different society now, much more global, much bigger and with aspirations that are almost expected, rather than hoped for. The 1950s wasn't fossil fuel free but that is what we have to aim for, for sustainability. Of course, sustainability may not be desireable for some people.

Tony

[Wildwell]

I did read the sites, not in a huge detail but I did read them.

http://www.pathtofreedom.com/urbanhomes ... ance.shtml

Talks about 1/5th of an acre. Well, a home with that sort of land near me costs about $1 million, especially with all the solar panels etc. It's not a solution because it's not true self-sufficiency. They still have cars, solar panels, and fridges, flushing loos, light bulbs - all industrial products. The so-called self-sufficient skills include Website and Graphic Design, Self Publishing for Books and Materials, Photography. I mean come on . This all assumes you also own your home outright, which few people do. In the real world most of us have to train to be bus drivers, computer programmers, sales managers and plumbers to get a roof over our heads and pay for things. If I thought i could get by growing a bit of veg and doing a few handycrafts and paying the mortgage I would.

An admirable effort I'm sure, but did anyone bother telling them they could reduce oil consumption considerably just be getting rid of the car, they didn't have to give up everything else. Oh look, it's an SUV, now there's a surpirse.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gridlock', 'I')f world oil production does follow an approximate bell curve, then we’ll still be producing as much oil in 20 years as we were in the 70s/80s

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '[')Well you certainly wouldn't have a global society with permaculture, so what's the problem?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'T')alks about 1/5th of an acre. Well, a home with that sort of land near me costs about $1 million