[perdition79]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', 'T')his recent article claims that most of what we get out of the ground these days is radically different than what we got out of the ground even 50 years ago.

It argues that fertilizers and modern farming practices have leeched the earth's soils of vast amount of nutrients in a very short period of time.

Fruits, vegetables not as nutritious as 50 years ago
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he declines ranged from 6 percent for protein, 15 percent for iron, 20 percent for vitamin C, and 38 percent for riboflavin.

[JoeCoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Vexed', '[')url=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/261163_veggie01.html]Fruits, vegetables not as nutritious as 50 years ago[/url]
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he declines ranged from 6 percent for protein, 15 percent for iron, 20 percent for vitamin C, and 38 percent for riboflavin.

[pea-jay]

Along similar lines, I read that increasing CO2 concentrations also increases plant growth speed, at the expense of nutrient value. Stuff apparently grows faster, but not better. In a global warmed future we may have to eat more food because each bite is nutritionally thinner than today.

[RG73]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'A')long similar lines, I read that increasing CO2 concentrations also increases plant growth speed, at the expense of nutrient value. Stuff apparently grows faster, but not better. In a global warmed future we may have to eat more food because each bite is nutritionally thinner than today.

[pea-jay]

I am less concerned about soil fertility. Why? Because soil depletion is an industrialized farming problem and not from farming itself. There are well documented, time tested approaches to growing crops with zero artificial fertilizer inputs. These approaches seek to loop plant and animal matter, nutrients and energy in as a closed loop as possible. Instead of a linear approach, you have a circular pattern where the "waste" of one step is the "fuel" for the next. All we do is carefully manipulate the flows at just the right time.

This is not your Monsanto's farm. It is not scalable, does not mass produce and not easily reproduced (it takes skill and practice). However it is eminently sustainable and given the diverse amount of produce and animal products it could yield, it probably would be much more useful for localized agriculture.

The solution to agriculture IS out there. Unfortunately for most of us, it is a labor intensive, high skill production that we are apparently not ready to implement on a large scale.

[foodnotlawns]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'I') am less concerned about soil fertility. Why? Because soil depletion is an industrialized farming problem and not from farming itself. There are well documented, time tested approaches to growing crops with zero artificial fertilizer inputs. These approaches seek to loop plant and animal matter, nutrients and energy in as a closed loop as possible. Instead of a linear approach, you have a circular pattern where the "waste" of one step is the "fuel" for the next. All we do is carefully manipulate the flows at just the right time.

This is not your Monsanto's farm. It is not scalable, does not mass produce and not easily reproduced (it takes skill and practice). However it is eminently sustainable and given the diverse amount of produce and animal products it could yield, it probably would be much more useful for localized agriculture.

The solution to agriculture IS out there. Unfortunately for most of us, it is a labor intensive, high skill production that we are apparently not ready to implement on a large scale.

[SoothSayer]

I know hobby farmers around here and when I tell them about Peak Oil they light up. Just about every hobby farmer I know is a Doomer, and yes, they want it to happen. They are sick of being marginalized nobodies who have to have a shitty "day job," when they know deep down that their farming is perfectly useful and justifiable as a career. So many of them are embittered by modern life, and yearn for global doom.

Spot on!

However I think that hobby farmers could be disappointed initially: they will have their crops stolen by townies. Their nice neighbours will also steal food, either directly or through begging:
Knock, knock. "Hello. I'm from across the road. As the supermarkets have closed down, I wonder if we could borrow some vegetables - the children need to eat. We'll pay you back as soon as the system gets fixed."

Later on the hobby farmers will either be forced to work for "bosses" ... maybe as "slaves" ... or more likely as respected "village farm managers".

The Powerpoint and Excel experts will have no value to the community - they will be working in the fields for the now respected hobby farmer.

[foodnotlawns]

<quote>However I think that hobby farmers could be disappointed initially: they will have their crops stolen by townies. Their nice neighbours will also steal food, either directly or through begging:
Knock, knock. "Hello. I'm from across the road. As the supermarkets have closed down, I wonder if we could borrow some vegetables - the children need to eat. We'll pay you back as soon as the system gets fixed."</quote>

Heck, telling the neighbors to screw off will be the best part! javascript:emoticon(':twisted:')

I warned them myself. A couple years ago I was knocking doors and handing out flyers "do a garden, or else" and they laughed at me.

An early Church father, Tertullian, told his flock to look forward to Heaven when all the good Christians would be watching from Heaven all the Roman pagans burning in Hell.

I'm not a Christian, but note the analogy. We have a real chance of seeing that now, and we don't even have to die. We can watch arrogant SUV driving McMansion corporate assholes starving in the streets, and hopefully tossing themselves out of high rises on Wall Street like they did in 1929.

That'll make it all worth it, even if my farm does get over-run and we get murdered in a raid. And if we are raided, I promise to put up stiff resistance. I already have a fighting positions built in the swamp out back with overlapping fields of fire (note to any gov't people who may be reading this: I am in total compliance with all laws, especially all laws regarding ownership of firearms).

I have read accounts of farmers in Rhodesia and South Africa who were well armed and got raided by 70 people at once, and eventually the raiders did win. But at least I'll die in a way that honors my ancestors.

[mekrob]

Why don't you try expanding your area so you can have more people living or working with you (such as fellow PO'ers)? And build some defenses (fences, ditches, creeks, [vicious] dogs, etc) so that if and when you get raided, your 'PO community' can survive. You say that other hobby farmers are with you, they would probably love to help another one out. You should probably work on communications whenever TSHTF so that you can act as your own local defenses depending on how close you guys are to each other. With proper defenses and tactics, you can easily have a 10-1 advantage, depending on your weapons and theirs if they have any.

[SoothSayer]

I warned them myself. A couple years ago I was knocking doors and handing out flyers "do a garden, or else" and they laughed at me.

They'll be around your house when the SHTF.

They'll have some "valid" reason why they haven't prepared and why you really are obliged to help them out.

It will get tricky if one of them has a cop or local senior civil servant in their family and brings them over at the same time to add "official" support. They'll spout some guff about "Emergency Powers Regulations" etc as they take away half your food and maybe other things they take a fancy to.

A slow decline will allow this sort of semi-official thievery to happen. Only an overnight total disaster would really allow you to seal off your home from outsiders.

I think that many/most of the prepared will lose most of their supplies to "official" authorities and to "desparate" neighbours.

Even the most agressive Doomer is not going to open fire on people if there is the remotest chance of ending up in a court charged with murder.

[pea-jay]

I guess to hope for the best in this discussion is to have (1) a general sense of recognition that the old system is indeed, doomed and (2) have that happen early enough we can still utilize our still ample energy supplies to effectively transition.

[thuja]

Foodnotlawns,

As much as I appreciate your efforts and encourage people to do backyard (and front yard) food gardening as much as possible, I also know that household food production is reserved only for homeowners (middle and upper classes) and that many people in this society are forced into working long hour day jobs which leaves them little time to farm.

Intensive backyard food production becomes a class issue. The upper class don't need to, much of the middle class don't have the time, and the working class often don't own their residence.

The same goes for buying local...its an economic issue. Local costs more than buying Top Ramen at Safeway. Buying and cooking bulk beets and kale (as much as I love that) costs more thatn buying a 1 $ burger from Wendy's.

So when you preach, think about class dynamics. I would guess that you have certain financial priveleges that allow you to spend a great deal of time intensively cultivating your land. Most people do not.

The problem of class dynamics and food will only get exacerbated in the years to come as Peak Oil becomes Decline Oil. There will be competition for food supplies, making all food more expensive. Peak Oil observers should think about how the poorest amongst them will get fed in years to come. When there's no food on the table, things can get weird fast---burglary, home invasions, car jackings, bike jackings, murder, riots, etc. These will all increase.

Its not just a matter of buy local- its a matter of developing a local food infrastructure that can adequately feed all local citizens- at a price they can afford.

[SoothSayer]

Its not just a matter of buy local- its a matter of developing a local food infrastructure that can adequately feed all local citizens- at a price they can afford.

Hah!

We'll simply end up with a mirror image of the big world.

The local government, police and bosses will get the choice food for zero work.

The middle classes will get the boring stuff in return for a lot of hard work.

The poor will get the scraps and will have to slave in the fields.

[thuja]

Hey I'm just as much of a doomer as you Soothsayer- and I agree that's probably the most likely outcome. However, I think we should be working towards adequate food distribution in our local communities, not just out of altruism, but out of self-protection. Unless you live in a locked guarded palace with decades of food supplies, you can't divide yourself for those who will become unemployed and will need assistance.

Federal plans such as food stamps and welfare may fall apart and local communities need to develop ways for helping the destitute and the newly destitute.

The New Deal was developed in the 30's in part out of fear that the poor would rise up and overthrow the government. Unions, socialist and communist organizations sprung up as a way to combat the huge disparities in wealth that developed out of the Great Depression.

It is highly doubtful that the federal government will be able to institute anything as massive and broad-reaching as the New Deal to mitigate the economic effects of the post-peak Decline.

Therefore, local communities need to come up with individualized plans to deal with the impending disaster. First and foremost, this means finding a way to shelter and feed those who are hit the first and hardest by the crisis.

Yes I agree that this may be unlikely and we may just fall into a Russian style grab and horde corrupt model in many different locales. However, I think there is potential for some communities to respond more proactively and less corruptly.

If as a Peak Oiler, though, you think you can escape the chaos by grabbing and hording, I think you are mistaken. Either we all float or we all sink.

[gt1370a]

I found this really interesting - it is now in vogue to hire someone to grow an organic garden in your yard. A number of people on this board have talked about this as a possible post-peak career, and I think this is evidence that they should seriously pursue it. Not just the gardening itself, but also training other people to be employees for your gardening company.

This is also an encouraging step towards re-localizing food production, as Kunstler, Simmons, and others have stressed for some time now. However, it may also be evidence of a returning trend to sharecropping or something similar, where the rich own plantations and the recently unemployed mortgage brokers and real estate agents go out and get their hands dirty.

Who would have imagined reading something like this on a Yahoo finance headline even just a year ago?

[Novus]

Sounds rather Orewellian to me.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')The highest form of luxury is now growing it yourself or paying other people to grow it for you,"

[dinopello]

Ha, I saw one of those around here. It had a little sign that mentioned the grower. The plants looked in good shape. It's better than paying some landscape company to grow non-natives for aesthetics. Maybe the people hiring will learn something and it helps start and keep a group of people with organic gardening skills around and that can't be bad.

I was at a party last week where I met a kid who had graduated from Sterling College in Vermont . This seems like it would be a good job opportunity for someone like him.

[WildRose]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')I was at a party last week where I met a kid who had graduated from Sterling College in Vermont . This seems like it would be a good job opportunity for someone like him.

[Ludi]

I don't see how it is more orwellian than a lawncare service...

step in the right direction = orwellian?

I'm not good at reading darkness and despair into everything, I guess....

[pedalling_faster]

this sounds a lot like being a gardener. with a marketing twist, "have your own CSA in your own backyard - no muss, no fuss !"

but this guy is marketing gardening in SF, to a clientele that can afford to pay $888K for a small house.

i like to see people use the term re-localizing. Silicon Valley had local manufacturing in the '70's & '80's, and there were even apricot orchards around then. local manufacturing & local food production !