[Colorado-Valley]

I published this column a few days ago just to get some discussion going about population and energy:

"Sell your kids!

"Okay, I’m always agonizing about this problem we have with exponential human growth versus increasingly limited supplies of energy and food. I won’t get into specifics so as not to alarm people unnecessarily, but there may be a tipping point ... and it mostly involves not getting to drive cars anymore.

"So, of course, I’ve come up with a solution that is effective, profitable and harmless.

"A free market for child credits.

"Here’s the proposal. Every human couple on Earth has the unalienable right to have up to two children. This would stabilize the population at zero growth — a good thing, since it is currently expanding at about 80 million people a year. In fact, because of unexpected deaths, the population would likely decrease over time because of war, disease and all kinds of natural disasters.

"Many people do not want to have children. I didn’t, for instance. But if there were a free market for my child credits, I could sell them to Mormons or Catholics or whoever wants extra kids. If a couple loses a child, they could simply purchase a credit for another one if they want. Everybody is happy!

"Over time, this would decrease the number of humans on the planet to its natural carrying capacity, which is considered to be about one billion people. Up until now, access to cheap oil and synthetic fertilizer made from natural gas has allowed industrial agriculture to feed about five billion excess people, but cheap energy seems to have been a 20th Century phenomenon.

"So, are humans smarter than yeast? Can they, unlike yeast, find a way to voluntarily lower their population in a humane way? The yeast multiply voraciously as long as there is energy in the petri dish, but then fall into a catastrophic die-off. So do all biological organisms, but they don’t have the unique human possibility of “free will” to decide their fate.

"At this point, the beautiful blue planet Earth, with its richly interconnected biosphere (what the Christians call the Garden of Eden), is scheduled to be bulldozed, mined, drilled and overheated in a massive frenzy to try to find enough carbon to keep 500 million vehicles running and industrial agriculture planting and harvesting billions of tons of food just to keep the system operating a few more years. After that inevitably comes war, famine, pestilence and unimaginable pain and poverty.

"Now I realize these are the normal ways that human populations are trimmed back to a diminished carrying capacity, but to tell you the truth, they’re also why I’ve been waking up in a cold sweat at night. I hate human suffering ... especially if it might involve me.

"So what do you think? Child credits for everyone as a way to back away from the population time bomb we’re facing?

"... Oh, and by the way, under this system, you can only sell your own child credits, not the neighborhood kids."

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', '"')So, are humans smarter than yeast? Can they, unlike yeast, find a way to voluntarily lower their population in a humane way?

[jaws]

It's the richest people who have the least children, so your child credits would have a market value of essentially nothing.

[Colorado-Valley]

We could have a situation where poor people are buying child credits from rich people.

[kevincarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ell your kids!

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Here’s the proposal. Every human couple on Earth has the unalienable right to have up to two children. This would stabilize the population at zero growth — a good thing, since it is currently expanding at about 80 million people a year. In fact, because of unexpected deaths, the population would likely decrease over time because of war, disease and all kinds of natural disasters.
"Many people do not want to have children. I didn’t, for instance. But if there were a free market for my child credits, I could sell them to Mormons or Catholics or whoever wants extra kids. If a couple loses a child, they could simply purchase a credit for another one if they want. Everybody is happy!

[ohcomeon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kevincarter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ell your kids!

[Sleepybag]

The idea to create ´reproduction credits´ is not new. But it is considered to be a totalitarian concept. It would involve fines, birth control, abortion, orphanage, or even murder of babies. And with advertisements for birth control pills forbidden in the USA, how can they educate their teenage girls?

I don´t see the entire world working together to limit the growth of their individual populations. Therefor, we have to do it ourselves, and not hope for a government to enforce this policy. Hopefully, mankind is indeed smarter than yeast. There are hopeful signs, that world population is slowly stabilizing. The ideal in most countries is growing towards two children for every woman. Over the last 10 years, the UN has consistently revised its world population projections downward.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wikipedia', '
')Forecast of world population

Current projections by the UN's Population Division, based on the 2004 revision of the World Population Prospects database, are as follows.

Year Population (billions)
2010 : 6.8
2020 : 7.6
2030 : 8.2
2040 : 8.7
2050 : 8.9

[Colorado-Valley]

So apparently the consensus is instead of a humane, free-market approach to population overhang, we're going to do the vast suffering and vicious depopulation, as per the yeast microbes ...

Wonderful ...

[linlithgowoil]

there is no other option unfortunately. i think i'd rather 'go down with the ship' as it were, than become a de-humanised brute who reduced the value of life to £ or $.

if its die-off, then thats they way it is. we all have to die dont we?

i wish people would just dump their totalitarian/utopian ideas of limiting humans to 1 billion in the bin. it will NEVER NEVER happen, so just forget it ok?

lets just all accept the fact that we are on a rollercoaster ride and we just have to try and hang on as long as we can. nobody lives forever, you ARE going to die, so just accept it.

its ironic as well, that most people who pretend to have an interest in the future of humankind actually detest most of humankind and would implement policies to destroy most of it if they had the chance. hilarious really.

[MrBill]

Good moral indignation. A pretty decent first rant! ; - )
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]I am not claiming to have all the answers. Something does need to happen. I am just saying this is not it. This process of child credit/vouchers (whatever) is making childbearing into a commodity and human life available for a price. In effect, the human race would have a price on its head. I don't see how you can think this would be good.

[ohcomeon]

[quote="MrBill"]Good moral indignation. A pretty decent first rant! ; - )

Thanks!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]I am not claiming to have all the answers. Something does need to happen. I am just saying this is not it. This process of child credit/vouchers (whatever) is making childbearing into a commodity and human life available for a price. In effect, the human race would have a price on its head. I don't see how you can think this would be good.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o no, I don't have a solution. But neither does the original poster in this thread. I am not sure anyone here does. But we do need to keep looking... Hopefully in a different direction. Maybe there is an answer. This ain't it though.

[grabby]

tax the bejeebers out of anything you want to conserve. Money talks.

[ohcomeon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o no, I don't have a solution. But neither does the original poster in this thread. I am not sure anyone here does. But we do need to keep looking... Hopefully in a different direction. Maybe there is an answer. This ain't it though.

[Falconoffury]

Just look at my signature. If humans don't control their numbers, nature will. Population will fall, and we don't have to do anything. The only problem I see, is look at what we are doing to nature. If we control ourselves, the planet will be more beautiful and full of life for future generations. The hydrocarbon age has and will continue to make this planet less suitable for human life. We are causing one of the greatest extinction periods in Earth history.

The purpose of controlling our population now is about having a better tomorrow. Since, people will only stop consuming when they are forced, the only way to have a better tomorrow is to force people to consume less.

Resources such as water, food, and oil are limited. They have limits. If we have a surplus of resources, children that are born can simply draw off the surplus. Everyone's dinner can remain at the same size. If we have no surplus, everyone's dinner gets a bit smaller as new children are born. If people are getting barely enough to survive, more children could pose a serious problem. We can either accept a police state, or a mad max every-man-for-himself situation. I think many choosing mad max may not know what they are getting themselves into. You may not just be taking nature's test. You may be testing yourself against hordes of marauding road warriors.

Personally, I think a government which controls the consumption of resources is better than all out chaos. If we can still have freedom to express ourselves and study whatever we want, then those are better freedoms than the freedom to consume.

[ohcomeon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', 'J')ust look at my signature. If humans don't control their numbers, nature will. Population will fall, and we don't have to do anything. The only problem I see, is look at what we are doing to nature. If we control ourselves, the planet will be more beautiful and full of life for future generations. The hydrocarbon age has and will continue to make this planet less suitable for human life. We are causing one of the greatest extinction periods in Earth history.

The purpose of controlling our population now is about having a better tomorrow. Since, people will only stop consuming when they are forced, the only way to have a better tomorrow is to force people to consume less.

Resources such as water, food, and oil are limited. They have limits. If we have a surplus of resources, children that are born can simply draw off the surplus. Everyone's dinner can remain at the same size. If we have no surplus, everyone's dinner gets a bit smaller as new children are born. If people are getting barely enough to survive, more children could pose a serious problem. We can either accept a police state, or a mad max every-man-for-himself situation. I think many choosing mad max may not know what they are getting themselves into. You may not just be taking nature's test. You may be testing yourself against hordes of marauding road warriors.

Personally, I think a government which controls the consumption of resources is better than all out chaos. If we can still have freedom to express ourselves and study whatever we want, then those are better freedoms than the freedom to consume.

[Falconoffury]

Man will continue to be man's worst enemy, but I have hope. I know Tokyo Japan has 500 people per square mile, but some of the lowest crime rates in the world. I don't condone that type of population density, but it is impressive how they can make a complex society with so little crime. Switzerland is a nice place to live with lots of public services and a stable currency. Even though most of mankind is chaotic and destructive, we can see bits and pieces of the solution in various parts of the world.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', 'M')an will continue to be man's worst enemy, but I have hope. I know Tokyo Japan has 500 people per square mile, but some of the lowest crime rates in the world. I don't condone that type of population density, but it is impressive how they can make a complex society with so little crime. Switzerland is a nice place to live with lots of public services and a stable currency. Even though most of mankind is chaotic and destructive, we can see bits and pieces of the solution in various parts of the world.