[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', ' ')Disgusting vile species.

[holmes]

hey here is the Ponzi numbers. ALL utopian energy scams are pure Ponzi. Lies. ALL! Utopians and energy scam artists!
http://www.powderriverbasin.org/cbm/costs.shtml

[Atlantean_Relic]

Honestly, if I knew where the string were and how to cut em , I would.

[Revi]

There will be more of this nonsense. Lots more. We will do practically anything to avoid reality. The average middle class person is exactly the same. We don't want to admit that we are living beyond our means. Living as a middle class person will soon be beyond our means. Car payments, gasoline, the kid's violin lessons. It doesn't add up now. Wait a few years. With inflation running at over 10% and people's wages barely going up 1%, everybody's down almost 10% a year. Regular living becomes less and less affordable. The only solution is to use less of everything and make your house and cars as efficient as possible.

[Revi]

Here's what we've done in our middle class house to cut our expenses in the past few years:

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/ ... /index.htm

[Zardoz]

How bad are people getting screwed now, compared to The Good Old Days? Here's how bad:

In 1955 my dad got a job offer he couldn't refuse, and we moved from St. Joseph, Missouri, to Long Beach California. We rented an apartment for a couple of months while my folks house-hunted, and they found this place, located just a block from the ocean in a neighborhood that has since been declared a cultural preservation area:



Hard as it may be to believe, that beautiful place had sat on the market for almost a year at $26,500. My folks offered $25,500 and got it.

Here's what people were making back then. Look at the median income for "All Families" in 1955:

Historic Income Tables

It was $4,418.00, so back then that great home in that idyllic neighborhood cost 5.8 times the median average American annual income.

(My folks later moved on and sold the place in 1977 for $62,000. My mom was ethical to a fault, and felt like she was gouging the people who bought it.)

Now here we are a half-century later, and things have changed a bit, haven't they? I keep track of what's going on in that neighborhood because I lived in three different houses on that same street, within three blocks of each other, right up until 1992. When I saw that our old original house was up for sale again in 2004, I checked up on it.

It sold for $1,270,000.

Here's the median American annual income in 2004. The numbers are on pages 10 and 11:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf

The median American family income in 2004 was $44,389, so our old house now costs 28.6 times the national average. Divide 5.8 into 28.6, and we find that my old house is now almost five times farther out of reach for the average American than it was in 1955.

Another example, and this is even worse:

The city of Lakewood, California was created in the 50s primarily to provide homes for vets:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_California

"Sometimes called "an instant city" because of its origins—going from lima bean fields in 1950 to a well-developed city in California by 1960—Lakewood is, along with Levittown, New York, the archetypal post-World War II American suburb. The vast majority of its housing stock is small, mass-produced single-story houses on tree-lined streets, sold initially to World War II and Korean War veterans who worked in the factories of Long Beach and the South Bay."

Here's an example:



Those little houses were "sold initially" for, incredibly, just $5,000, so back then they cost a mere 1.13 times the national average annual income! Was America a great country back then, or what?

Now the bad news. The median average income is around $45,000, right? Look at what that little bitty place is going for today:

Check the lot size

From 1.13 times the median income, it's now up to 9.4 times the average. So much for the American Dream, Lakewood-style.

Sure, these Southern California prices are insane, but they're illuminating. Real estate out here was affordable for just about anybody back then. It's a joke now.

How did all this happen?

[Madpaddy]

Same thing in Ireland Zardoz,

11 years ago the average salary was about €16,000 and the average house was €60,000. Today the average salary is €30,000 but the average house price is €320,000 and rising by €2,500 every month. Every respected economic commentator in the country are saying it is unsustainable but noone is talking about a crash just a halt in price increases. Meanwhile, the ECB is oised to raise interest rates by 0.5% this month. It's going to be very interesting...

People are complaining but they are distracted by the greater affordability of foreign holidays, cars, TVs and other sh.t

The bottom line is 2 people working in good jobs can barely afford the average house and are getting 35 or even 40 year mortgages.

The PTB have no interest in changing this state of affairs as the government clean up in property taxes from every house bought and sold. The developers who fund the political parties are laughing all the way to the bank.

And to think we have a reputation as rebels - what a joke

[seldom_seen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'B')ut there will be alot of TALKING and more talking. Lots of talk. The NOTHING Ponzi society.

[Revi]

Zardoz, that's incredible! What? $2416 a month on a 30 year mortgage for a postage stamp lot! Who can afford that?

As Woody Guthrie said:
California is the garden of eden, a paradise to live in or see, but believe it or not, you won't find it so hot if you ain't got the do -re -mi.

My sister and her hubby moved out there a couple of years ago, and came back bankrupt. I suggested buying a place around here (Maine), but they wouldn't listen. California dreams die hard.

[PrairieMule]

Zardoz,

Sitting in the credit/appraisal dept here at work I am astonished at California appraisals. We had a shoebox house from Compton come back at $357K. In this was the hood, complete with bars on the windows and iron gates. The comparables looked like the set of The Sheild.

I remember my Dad had a few rent houses in Houston (Bellaire) back in the 70's and he paid 14K for each one now the lot goes for $250K.

This week a buzz has sprung up on the origination end here at work. New applications for refi's and purchases have dropped. It doesn't affect my dept because we take credit reports shaped like square pegs and fit them in round holes.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '.')..we take credit reports shaped like square pegs and fit them in round holes.

[the_red_pill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')From 1.13 times the median income, it's now up to 9.4 times the average. So much for the American Dream, Lakewood-style.

Sure, these Southern California prices are insane, but they're illuminating. Real estate out here was affordable for just about anybody back then. It's a joke now.

How did all this happen?

[mekrob]

30%?! Very nice. I'm really hoping that once I get a job I'll be able to live as frugally as possible. I'm hoping to only have to live on $15k a year and just save the rest up for the future to buy a nice farm or something.

[Free]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dooberheim', 'O')ne big hit I've taken is for a guy, frugality is poison to women. You guys with wives that share your vision of a simple, low dollar life are incredibly lucky. However, once I got it through my head that a woman couldn't do anything for me that my hands couldn't do just as well, I moved on.

[Anthrobus]

An awesomely good thread. Thanks for your elaborate postings.

The situation in germany is similar precarious for the middle class, as far as the hidden inflation and the need for a two income family nowadays is concerned.

My income didnt increase for some years now, but energy, gas, taxes, etc. I guess also, that inflation must at least equal the percentage of the deficit in the states budget + uncovered expected expenses (pensions, health etc). This should in Germany amount to an inflation of close to 10%. (3,5% deficit federal gov, + Länder+other promises but uncovered benefits+energy etc. - cheap goods from the far east).

Luckily, my wife and i agree to live a moderate lifestyle and to pay everything in cash. There is only a small mortgage on the house that is well covered by subsidies of the state.

By a funny coincidence, today i recieved an advertisement by letter, offering instant credit of 10.000 Euros to fulfill my hottest dreams. (Car, Holiday, shopping ...).
In a deep breath i realized, that we already put aside that sum of money to to be able to buy with cash (Car, holiday, shopping).

How much more can one consume by paying everyting cash in comparison to buying everything on credit? I guess about 20 - 25% more An additional benefit is that you can buy when there is a good occasion, while on credit you usually buy instantly out of need, i guess.

-> Doomerism, though tempting, is not the answer or at least the end. I may start a thread about finding an appropriate answer to it, which i unfortunately haven't yet. Still working on it.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

I save 80% of my income and I use that money to buy gold & silver only. Unlike everyone else, I have no interest in property, property is a scam like anyother bouble, people have to keep jumping onboard to keep the party going until people start jumping off which will be soon.

[mekrob]

What do you do for a living Dukat? 80% is pretty ridiculous although not even close to being impossible if you put your mind to it. And no land? Well, I'm sure you can eat that gold and silver when the grocery story stops being resupplied.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', ' ')Now my wife drops me off at work then goes to her job. I actually enjoy my drive into work now. I used to be tired and grumpy, now I have someone to talk to and I enjoy the drive.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', ' ')Now my wife drops me off at work then goes to her job. I actually enjoy my drive into work now. I used to be tired and grumpy, now I have someone to talk to and I enjoy the drive.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'S')ame thing in Ireland...

11 years ago the average salary was about €16,000 and the average house was €60,000. Today the average salary is €30,000 but the average house price is €320,000 and rising by €2,500 every month...

The bottom line is 2 people working in good jobs can barely afford the average house and are getting 35 or even 40 year mortgages.