[thuja]

I've been pondering the ongoing and often rancorous debate between cornucopians and doomers and I wonder if there is any room for common ground.

Often our arguments start as technical debates that become increasingly acrimonious. What I want to know is what is at the root of our frustration with each other.

As a doomer I'll be the first to say that I'm scared of cornucopians trying to implement their plans of monoculture ethanol crops, numerous new nuclear power plants and continued consumption of fossil fuels.

I fear that this road will exacerbate our current problems and could actually lead to a far worse crisis down the road.

However, I can understand that cornucopians are just as scared of us. They fear that doomers will set us back to a pre-industrial pre-modern dark ages that will cause starvation, war, and the end of civilization as we know it.

Each side is invested in winning their argument because they are scared of what losing means. They see the road painted by the other side as destructive, terrifying and possibly apocolyptic.

So my feeling is I don't fault cornucopians for their beliefs, even if I disagree with them. They genuinely think they are offering solutions that will stave off an immense crisis and thereby protect billions of lives.

But doomers, as well, are intent on preparing the best for the future by preparing for an impending catastrophe without believing in false hopes.

Two sides thinking they are doing the right thing with good intentions.

[killJOY]

APPARENTLY NOT.

[holmes]

"If you get down and you quarrel every day your saying prayers to the devil I say". - Bob Marley

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')an't we all just get along?

[holmes]

I am not afraid. I relish power down. I breath power down.
cornucopians are Ponzi and BAU. They are not afraid. they know exactly what they are doing. Do not be fooled by their siren songs of pure Ponzi. They are anti compassion. anti love.
Oh and they also have their hands on your cash. Taxpayers beware!

[Jack]

You ask a good question – but I believe the answer is “no”.

Here’s why. The cornucopians believe in abundance – that resources are widely available, and that human ingenuity makes infinite substitution possible. They will always believe this, no matter what facts might be marshaled against them.

On the other side, doomers believe in scarcity – that resources have limits, and that human ingenuity can only do so much before you run out. They will always believe this, no matter what facts might be presented.

You can go to a restaurant and see the two groups. One will either finish everything on their plate or take the leftovers home. They’re convinced that food will be scarce – even though we have (most of us have) limitless abundance. Others will take a few bites out of a plate – or a platter! – heaped to overflowing, and then leave the rest to be thrown out. They believe, to the very center of their being, that food is endlessly abundant, and they can waste it to their heart’s content.

Neither mindset is, I think, fully based in rational thought. Each of us has a set of views, beliefs, and attitudes that are set by the time we enter our teens or before. We then gather facts to support that outlook.

Each side regards the other as being blind to rational argument – and, to a degree, they’re both correct. Our emotions and beliefs influence what we see, and the facts we accept. The problem is, our discussions here simply cannot change the mindset of the various parties. So we argue endlessly, rancorously, and we never come to a conclusion. Nor will we. This will continue until one side or the other is proved right; and that proof may only be available a century hence. I say this because so long as anyone is alive, a doomer may believe that things can get worse. And at the same time, even if there are only two people alive on a moonscape of a world, the cornucopian will believe that things are sure to get better.

Ironically, as mattes develop, the arguments will get worse. Because remember, peak oil either affirms the doomers’ darkest imaginings – or it validates the cornucopians deepest convictions. People defend their beliefs, and the harsher the challenge, the more violent the reaction to such challenges.

Of course, we all know that cornucopians will be proved utterly wrong.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

As a doomer I have to say I totally disagree.

I don't things are going to get worse I think they are going to get better. Yes, people will die off, and I might well be one of them, many of the members of my extended family may die off, but I think we will be getting back to where we should be.

I think the insanity of the cornucopia side is that they are so lost in the group think and have so much at stake in just the effort they expend to fit in with the "norm", that they are totally disconnected with the real world. Yes, it might just be that I am a lot more grounded than some but I honestly question any version of reality that is like an economists wet dream that says infinity is possible.

I will never "just get along" if only because argueing is good for you and you can learn an immense amount about others, yourself and the world. Life would be a boring waste of time otherwise. If I ever want to "just get along" I have a cat to turn to. For everything else ? luckily there are really thoughtful, intelligent people out there.

[thuja]

Ok ok, I hear the doomer side- and I'd love to hear from some cornucopians -- RGR? DigCubano? Lorenzo?

My feeling is that we may never be able to agree- but is there a way to move through this without castigating the other side as evil, morally reprehensible baby killers?

I am guessing that they feel just as strongly that they are acting morally and wisely and that the doomer side is actually the one that will lead us on a long dark path. I don't think they are talking out of greed, selfishness and ignorance. (Well maybe ignorance...sorry lol)

Anyways, my thoughts are we may disagree but I don't feel we have to cast them as macheiavellian twisted characters in a bad movie.

But Holmes you seem to think differently. No agreement and they're evil. True?

[mekrob]

Cornucopians vs Doomers? Hell, I'm still fighting off the morlocks...

[holmes]

Yes I believe the true cornucopian is evil. They operate on pure emotionalism. They twist to fit neo classical agendas. They manipulate ignorant masses. They ravage the land. They care about nothing except to keep their power and control over things going. It matters not what comes after them. They only care for themsleves, really. yet scream they are doing it for humanity. Now I do belive many are not really cornucapians just scared. The hard core ones want ponzi schemes and bottom lines. They are evil. I once went to an Amway meeting and a convention once. The leaders were greedy evil creeps. the cult followers materialist and sacrificial. It was creepy and weird. The farther u go from the warm embrace of Ma nature the weirder and more corrupt u get.
Anyone wanting to keep this suffering going and likes the increasing costs and insanity has to be evil.
Monte exposed them awhile back to me. I once thought like many here that they were just honest folk trying to make and honest buck. I found out differently. They also, if they find you have something they desire they will do anything they can to covet it.
does not anyone observe the trail of ruin this whole ponzi has created? Its a nothing system. There was something before and after there is nothing. No resources. no asthetics. No freedom. More costs and more prison.
They also want everything and everyone to be a monoculture. All dependent on a grid. all dependent on a pharmecuetical militray industrial complex. all confined to a cement box. Everything uniform. everything a false lie. Not for me. All i have to do is see Crazy Horse monument and understand what I am. and what life really is all about.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'O')ne will either finish everything on their plate or take the leftovers home. They’re convinced that food will be scarce – even though we have (most of us have) limitless abundance. Others will take a few bites out of a plate – or a platter! – heaped to overflowing, and then leave the rest to be thrown out. They believe, to the very center of their being, that food is endlessly abundant, and they can waste it to their heart’s content.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')k ok, I hear the doomer side- and I'd love to hear from some cornucopians -- RGR? DigCubano? Lorenzo?

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')The interesting thing about getting along is that the Other Side is always presented as taking something from My Side,

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')The interesting thing about getting along is that the Other Side is always presented as taking something from My Side, thereby preventing cooperation. But the Cornucopias certainly don’t want the Malthusians MRE’s (though maybe their PMs) and the Mals certainly don’t want (or at least admit to wanting) the Corns Plasma Screens.

My thought is if some series of events were to happen that brought these two groups everyday realities closer together you would see a decrease in the Us vs Them attitude.

Any idea what series of events I might be thinking of?