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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Middle ground between believers & deniers

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Wed 31 May 2006, 19:06:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m the proprietor of LATOC, the "alpha male prophet of doom" himself. I was originally schooled by none other than the "original prophet of doom", Jay Hanson.

And guess what? I have managed not to alienate anybody in my personal circle or cause anyone to sever ties with me. Reason? I have some modicum of social skills. (I also happen to be quite dashing. See:


hehehehe modest too I see. :-D

seriously though I have nothing against LATOC I found it full of very interesting subject matter but you can't possibly disagree that the views on your site are rather extreme to say the least.

And I don't know about your personal life but certainly you have managed to alienate a great number of people online. To say otherwise is just silly. On the other hand you have also managed to spread a great deal more awareness of the issue than possibly anyone else, and that is to be commended.

Frankly I just don't understand the tone of your response, I wasn't attacking you in the least so why then do you retaliate by calling into question my social skills? This for me calls into question your own personal social skills which seem to be coming off the worse for wear.
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 31 May 2006, 19:47:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', 'A')nyway to answer your question. I simply try to create awareness in those around me of the things immediately going wrong in society around them. I moved myself to a small town near the B.C/Alberta border where my family can enjoy the modern comforts that as yet they are unwilling to go without, and I can scout out the vast surrounding wilderness for easily defencable/sustainable areas for post-crash living, and yet still keep my focus on earning an income to support my family under the current system. So far it's going good.



So, not really helping anyone else much. Ok. I guess. I was thinking from what you'd posted you'd be more into helping people find answers.

I agree you should read Daniel Quinn. But don't expect any answers from him, just confirmation.

Answers come from elsewhere, you just have to look for them.
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby MattSavinar » Wed 31 May 2006, 22:02:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m the proprietor of LATOC, the "alpha male prophet of doom" himself. I was originally schooled by none other than the "original prophet of doom", Jay Hanson.

And guess what? I have managed not to alienate anybody in my personal circle or cause anyone to sever ties with me. Reason? I have some modicum of social skills. (I also happen to be quite dashing. See:


hehehehe modest too I see. :-D

seriously though I have nothing against LATOC I found it full of very interesting subject matter but you can't possibly disagree that the views on your site are rather extreme to say the least.

And I don't know about your personal life but certainly you have managed to alienate a great number of people online. To say otherwise is just silly. On the other hand you have also managed to spread a great deal more awareness of the issue than possibly anyone else, and that is to be commended.

Frankly I just don't understand the tone of your response, I wasn't attacking you in the least so why then do you retaliate by calling into question my social skills? This for me calls into question your own personal social skills which seem to be coming off the worse for wear.


I didn't take it as an attack. And even if it was, I really wouldn't care. This is the interent you know.

As far as my tone, I figured the picture and what not would moderate it a bit. Maybe should have included a smiley face to tone it down a bit. Here:

Consider my point though:

If 1) you were indeed a religious fanatic at one point in your life and 2) you have managed to alienate your friends and family since finding out about peak oil, you have problems that go deeper than the issues related to oil.

As far as my (general) views on the likely ramifications of oil depletion, they are shared by many prominent mainstream individuals. They are only extreme in that they are outside the comfort zone of the average person. The idea that gas would be $3.50 out here in CA would have been considered extreme 2 years ago. 10 years ago, the idea we would be occupying Iraq in a "war that will not end in our lifetimes" would also have seemed extreme. But not if you were aware of Peak Oil. See, for instance, some of the things written by Jay Hanson circa 1997.

Best,

Matt
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby MattSavinar » Wed 31 May 2006, 22:06:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m the proprietor of LATOC, the "alpha male prophet of doom" himself. I was originally schooled by none other than the "original prophet of doom", Jay Hanson.

And guess what? I have managed not to alienate anybody in my personal circle or cause anyone to sever ties with me. Reason? I have some modicum of social skills. (I also happen to be quite dashing. See:




And I don't know about your personal life but certainly you have managed to alienate a great number of people online. .


We're discussing oil which inevitably leads into issues related to politics and religion. It would be impossible NOT to alienate people unless you are a totaly pansy who feels the needs to sugarcoat everything.

And as I said, this IS the internet you know. If you can't even argue here then all is lost.

Best,

Matt
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Wed 31 May 2006, 23:50:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o, not really helping anyone else much. Ok. I guess. I was thinking from what you'd posted you'd be more into helping people find answers.


Oh I am, but alas I have yet to be that effective. You can consider this post a small first step. It has after all stimulated some minor debate at the least.

And as far as Daniel Quinn goes, I looked him up today looks like a good read. I try to find my answers within, but new ideas are certainly always welcome. As is a good book.

Matt,

I actually totally missed the "In my personal circle" part of your first post so yes the people you have alienated over the internet shouldn't count. My bad. And as far as the people in my personal circle that I managed to alienate, well, lets just say I have since been welcomed back into the fold. I mean, from what I remember of your site you were quite open about the fact that this shit will most likely mess with your head. Lets just say in the beginning it certainly did that to me and I might have come on a little strong. Also weren't you going to be a lawyer? This tells me that the people in your inner circle are likely a tad more mature than those in mine (not to dis my friends but most of them are kind of Jackasses).

As far as my former religious fanaticism (because yes I was once quite fanatical) goes... I wonder did you by any chance grow up in a christian home? If not, perhaps you don't understand the rigorous brainwashing many of us go through at a very early age. I can assure you it's pretty disgusting. Basically what they do is drive into your head that everything you want to do is evil, and that God sees ALL of it and if you don't repeatedly ask forgiveness and think about all the terrible things you've done (which mostly aren't bad at all) you will be going to hell(eternal fire and brimstone). Oh and the reason you have to ask forgiveness ALL the time is because you could die at any second.

Try reasoning that shit out at 4 years old. That I've managed to come as far as I have is almost shocking even to me.

Peace

P.S. Just because your ideas make sense does not make them any less extreme. Jay Hanson (from what I remember) is VERY extreme, and so for that matter is the very idea of peak oil. As a matter of fact what is an extreme idea other than one which puts "the average person" out of their comfort zone. Remember when I say extreme I do not mean bad.
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 00:00:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e're discussing oil which inevitably leads into issues related to politics and religion. It would be impossible NOT to alienate people unless you are a totaly pansy who feels the needs to sugarcoat everything.


Hey, whats wrong with sugarcoating? As much as we all hate to admit it we need the sheeple, I mean if they all die off who the hells gonna do all the menial labor, and be their for us to make fun of? :) Remember also that eventually the sugar goes away and you get to the substance underneath, maybe by that time they'll be ready for the full truth.

Oh yeah and I love how you called me a total pansy without actually calling me a total pansy. That was rad. :lol:

Peace
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Making the run...

Unread postby Whitefang » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 08:43:52

Hey Matrim,

Your story of life and wanderings mirrors mine, good choice to settle near BC with confort, then move northwest when lights go out.
I'm trying to get people on BC best for the test, so far no results and family is not eager to make the move.

Gool luck and check on coastal regions say from Bella Coolla, ideal for the winters and Yukon for summer hunting grounds.
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 16:04:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m trying to get people on BC best for the test, so far no results and family is not eager to make the move.


Yeah I think it'll be a really good place post crash, Northern Saskatchewan and Manitoba are probably going to be pretty decent too but currently have exactly dick for work so B.C. seems best in the short and long term.
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby MattSavinar » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 17:45:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Also weren't you going to be a lawyer? This tells me that the people in your inner circle are likely a tad more mature than those in mine (not to dis my friends but most of them are kind of Jackasses).


I am a licensed attorney, although I am not practicing. Like your friends, most attorneys are jackasses. The ones who are good people tend to burn out within 5-to-7 years of beginning practice.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')As far as my former religious fanaticism (because yes I was once quite fanatical) goes... I wonder did you by any chance grow up in a christian home?


As a matter of fact, I did. It was not of the fanatical persuasion though.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f not, perhaps you don't understand the rigorous brainwashing many of us go through at a very early age. I can assure you it's pretty disgusting. Basically what they do is drive into your head that everything you want to do is evil, and that God sees ALL of it and if you don't repeatedly ask forgiveness and think about all the terrible things you've done (which mostly aren't bad at all) you will be going to hell(eternal fire and brimstone). Oh and the reason you have to ask forgiveness ALL the time is because you could die at any second.

Try reasoning that shit out at 4 years old. That I've managed to come as far as I have is almost shocking even to me.


That's great that you have, and it proves my point: you have (psychological) problems that go beyond information related to Peak Oil. That's not a criticism as most of us have some type of mental problem. You have to be a bit whacked to spend so much time on an issue such as this.

Something I'm hoping to explore more in the future is what attracts people to this information? I have a few theories I've discussed elsewhere and hope to discuss more in the future. Only problem is I think that some will REALLY piss people off simply because they are probably more true than some want to admit.

As I have a financial stake in this (I sell books/dvds/newsletters on these matters) I can't afford to piss people off TOO much.

BTW, if you want the "real truth", I think the only person your'e going to get it from is Jay Hanson. He is the only peak oil "advocate" I know of who is not using these matters to acquire either social capital (as an activist) or financial capital (as an author/merchant/speaker). He sells nothing related to peak oil and belongs to no groups related to peak oil. So he can speak the truth without fear of losing friends, customers, or royalties.

I feel that those of us who have friends or customers to lose probably censor ourselves (at least a little) at the pre-conscious level in order to avoid the loss in social status or income from believing/saying certain things.

Best,

Matt
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 18:26:00

A fine set of observations and refreshing candor. Good post.
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 18:30:10

Personally, I haven't spent much time looking for answers "within." I mostly hate that kind of garbage. (Sort of new age crapola in my opinion) Practical answers to real life physical problems come from research and trial and error, observation and application, not contemplating one's navel.

Anyway, not sure in what way you think this thread is "helping" people? Maybe you can explain.....
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 18:52:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'P')ersonally, I haven't spent much time looking for answers "within." I mostly hate that kind of garbage. (Sort of new age crapola in my opinion) Practical answers to real life physical problems come from research and trial and error, observation and application, not contemplating one's navel.
Practical answers are going to be what is needed after the decline gets going. And all of those objective kinds of thinking are what's required for that. But "contemplating one's navel" is a downbeat term for introspection, which is nothing more than paying attention to the workings in one's own head. There can be some unique feedbacks between the observing mind and the observed mind if you focus attention on what's going on mentally. I'm all for the creative work of self awareness which is an upbeat term for introspection. In answer to the mental health theme brought up by Savinar, I came from a family with serious mental health issues and though I may post strange posts, I can say that my knowledge of these matters came from personal experience and I am glad to say that the feared issues have not risen in me at the age of 52. Introspection for me was a matter of self defence, and became a rewarding end in itself. You have to be willing to let troubling matters of the past return for resolution. We all start out small, weak and conditioned. The advantage of age is that buried problems can be dissolved if one goes to the trouble of letting them out and having a look.
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 19:18:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ractical answers to real life physical problems come from research and trial and error


Yes they do but most such answers are easy. Figuring out what the hell is wrong with "us" isn't so easy, and no amount of physical research will answer it for us.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Anyway, not sure in what way you think this thread is "helping" people? Maybe you can explain.....


It's an attempt at provoking thought and stimulating ideas beyond "run for the hills and save yourselves". It hasn't exactly taken the direction I expected it to, but I have certainly enjoyed the discussion. So in my eyes I've done what I set out to do.

I didn't set out trying to convince people they have to think like me, that's why I used the title "a happy middle ground", because it sounds absurd. I set out trying to make you think. If you happen to think I'm a retard, I can deal with that.

Peace
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 19:46:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am a licensed attorney, although I am not practicing. Like your friends, most attorneys are jackasses. The ones who are good people tend to burn out within 5-to-7 years of beginning practice.


:lol: I suppose you're probably right
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')As a matter of fact, I did. It was not of the fanatical persuasion though.


No threats of eternal damnation :shock: What kind of christians are they!? :-D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's great that you have, and it proves my point: you have (psychological) problems that go beyond information related to Peak Oil.


Of course I do, I am after all human (sadly). What irritated me about your first post is that you seemed (to me) to be retaliating to a percieved attack, which was not intended, and in doing so presumed a fair amount about my character. I must point out that you had only a couple posts on an internet site to go on in making this evaluation upon my psyche. On the other hand I've enjoyed the back and forth, and have been judged much more harshly at times in the past.


PMS,

Thanks for the thumbs up, glad you've enjoyed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ntrospection for me was a matter of self defence, and became a rewarding end in itself.


I think it was much the same for myself. I found most of what I had always taken for granted as "truth" unraveling towards the end of high school. My only defence was to focus on who I really was, in the process I discovered a lot of the things I had once believed important were in fact quite trivial, and that the most important things are really quite basic and simple.

Peace
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 20:46:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ractical answers to real life physical problems come from research and trial and error


Yes they do but most such answers are easy.


REALLY. So you know how to grow and/or forage all your own food, do you?

"Easy." If you really think so, you are totally full of it. Sorry, but you are.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', 'I')t's an attempt at provoking thought and stimulating ideas beyond "run for the hills and save yourselves".


Yet your plans, for yourself, that you have revealed so far, don't indicate you have any other idea of what to do than run for the hills and save yourself.
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 20:51:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', ' ')I can say that my knowledge of these matters came from personal experience and I am glad to say that the feared issues have not risen in me at the age of 52..


Lucky you. I'm mentally ill. Glad you're not. :)

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but, like I say, lucky you. :)
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 21:05:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
') ucky you. :)
:lol: right! I guess I'm just trying to say I don't feel helpless or lost. Not now. but jeez, what's coming? you know?
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 21:17:25

Not sure what us mentally ill types who depend on medications are going to do in the crappy future.

Oh, but nevermind! Those sorts of answers are the "easy" ones, right?

Maybe Matrim can give me an easy answer as to how my sister and I can get by without our meds in the future. :)

I'm sorry, I probably sound irritated, by yeah, I guess I kind of am. When I see someone posting about "looking within" for answers of how to deal with our need to change our way of life, I get frustrated, and yes, even frightened. Because that's heading in the direction of "We need to evolve to the next spiritual plane" and utter crapola like that. Which is totally useless. No amount of navel gazing is going to help us through these problems. Contemplation is important, but it does not solve problems in the physical world. We need to stop screwing around and begin changing our way of life, not spend more time "looking within."

Anyway, sorry, continue. With whatever this thread is about, I still don't know what that is......
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Matrim » Thu 01 Jun 2006, 22:58:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ot sure what us mentally ill types who depend on medications are going to do in the crappy future.


I'm not to sure either, thats why I said "Most". Although if you rely on medications I definitely understand your anxiety concerning the future. My most debilitating physical ailment is asthma and I personally found that the only way to make it any better was to get off all the crap they put me on as a kid (sidenote: I haven't used my inhaler in 6 years and haven't had a serious attack in, get this, 6 years).
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Maybe Matrim can give me an easy answer as to how my sister and I can get by without our meds in the future.


Sorry can't, honestly wish I could but alas, I can not. Although if you could tell us what the condition is I'd be happy to do some research. Of course if it's that serious you probably already have.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')EALLY. So you know how to grow and/or forage all your own food, do you?


Actually yes, and have since long before I discovered PO. Though to be honest in my area of the world it's incredibly easy, practically everything is edible if you know how to prepare it. I'd probably be lost in Texas.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m sorry, I probably sound irritated, by yeah, I guess I kind of am.


No need to apologize, I've had that effect on people before and I'm sure I will again (likely in the near future too).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')et your plans, for yourself, that you have revealed so far, don't indicate you have any other idea of what to do than run for the hills and save yourself.

True. I definitely plan on running for the hills, of course I also plan on getting together as many people as I can to come with, pooling knowledge etc. etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') get frustrated, and yes, even frightened. Because that's heading in the direction of "We need to evolve to the next spiritual plane" and utter crapola like that.

And if we could are you saying that would be a bad thing because on that I totally disagree. I personally believe enlightenment can be achieved, and I do tend to think the world would be better off if more people strived towards it. That said it's a personal choice and I wouldn't want to push it on anyone, spirituality should be a personal experience not a religious one.

and to close.....
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Anyway, sorry, continue. With whatever this thread is about, I still don't know what that is......

It's about whatever you want it to be about. I'll discuss pretty much anything. So continue........

Peace
smoke 2 joints in the mornin'/smoke 2 joints at night
smoke 2 joints in the afternoon it makes me feel alright
I smoke 2 joints in time of peace and 2 in time of war
I smoke 2 joints before I smoke 2 joints and then I smoke 2 more - sublime
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Re: A happy middle ground

Unread postby Kfish » Fri 02 Jun 2006, 23:47:37

Ludi,

I'm not trying to pry here, but if you or your sister are on SSRI antidepressants (Prozac, Zoloft etc.) as I am, my doctor has recommended St. John's Wort tablets as an alternative. She tells me that this entire family of antidepressants are chemically related to, and developed from, extracts of this herb.

In a situation where conventionally produced medications of this type are unavailable, it is possible that a tea or tincture of St. John's Wort (Hypericium? Not sure of scientific name) could be used instead. Unfortunately, the dosage rate is fairly high: 100mg of Zoloft has to be replaced by three tablets of St. John's Wort extract per day, which I think is about 200 micrograms per tablet. Which equates to a hell of a lot of tea.

Not an easy answer by any means, but the possibility exists. The plant itself is available in some nurseries; I've considered growing it myself more than once.

BTW, I understand your irritation with Matrim; it's a bit hard to get excited about spiritual growth when you're struggling to provide for you and yours. It's even harder when some idiot is telling you that you don't really need the meds, you'll be fine with a bit of spiritual growth / enlightenment (not directed at you, Matrim, but something I've gotten occasionally).

However, we as a culture will lose a lot if we allow everything but basic survival to fall by the wayside. Ironically, our present situation has been exacerbated by an excess of self-centredness and a lack of self-awareness. Hopefully we can manage our powerdown carefully enough that we can eat and truly live as well.
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