[Matrim]

"once oil becomes an un-economical option for energy, alternative energy will be top priority"

While under our current economic system this may in fact be true...........but why is it that all these people who are so desperate to believe that our society can and will last forever repeatedly ignore the lessons history has taught us. Life is a cycle, death is a part of that cycle as is rebirth. This applies to everything up to and including society. Our current system of economics (supposedly a science ) is a total farce. Don't believe me? Go ask an economist what he thinks of the idea that oil reserves will one day decline based on the fact that we live on a finite planet with a finite number of resources and see what he says. Trust me it'll be good for a laugh. His answer will likely sound a lot more like religious dogma than science because frankly thats exactly what it is. You see he will be unable to consider the possibility that we as humans do not understand everything, and all the education he payed thousands upon thousands of dollars for has told him that our society will never decline thats why we have "checks and balances" built into the system, to avoid just such a decline. He fails of course to factor in human fallibility and blindly assumes we have it all figured out.
The person who the quote above is taken from has made the same mistake.

Now there are a lot of people on this site and elsewhere, who have come to grips with the fact that our society cannot go on indefinitely and that our way of life is in fact all to negotiable. Naturally there first reaction upon this realization is to spread the word: we're doomed. Unfortunately this approach comes across much like the hypothetical economists own view: Fanatical and almost religious in nature. Again the PO'ers make the mistake of believing in their own infallibilty, and they make a bigger mistake in assuming that everyone who is unable to come to terms with this information is either stupid or worthless, I have at times been guilty of this very thing. TOO many of the people aware of this issue have decided that it is the definite and for sure end of our way of life, and are frankly excited about it. We need to remember that we DO NOT have all the answers. PO very likely will not be the direct cause of our society's demise, more likely I see it being our own human arrogance bringing about our fall. PO will be a part of this but a very small part.

Now for the point, we need to find a happy middle ground between the people ready to accept this issue and those who falsely believe that our lifestyle is non-negotiable. Instead of hoping for a full collapse and rebuilding when the storm dies down, and thus alienating the people who simply cannot hope for this, we need to begin making a realistic model for reformation based on equality. Real equality not the farce we live with now in the first world. Most of the people I told about PO in my fanatic days just stopped talking to me until I regained my sanity. Now when I talk about our world I talk about the neccessity for change instead of the imminent end........and they all agree.

IMO there is a collective sub-concious and it is well aware of the fact that something is very wrong in this world, and most of us recognize this. We just need to show the neccessity for change in an inviting and appealing way to the masses. If we truly want a soft transition we need the people on our side, we won't get their support by calling them stupid and worthless simply because everything they've been taught by the people they trust tells them otherwise.

Peace

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', 'G')o ask an economist what he thinks . . . all the education he payed thousands upon thousands of dollars for has told him that our society will never decline

[smiley]

An admirable but rather futile effort my dear Matrim.

[Matrim]

"I'm sure you are sincere, but what has equality to do with any of this? We "reform" the world by making everyone "equal" and that's going to solve energy problems? overshoot?"

Equality has nothing to do with PO so to speak what it has to do with is what comes next. I think it's been established well enough on this site that there is virtually nothing we can do about the coming decline. The point is dealing with the decline. We need as many people on board as possible. Attempting to actually achieve equality as opposed to pretending we already have seems to me the best way to get these people on board. The fact is most of us ARE going to die when this happens but to focus almost solely on that fact is folly. It makes people want to agree with the likes of Cheney and the boys. To say our way of life is non-negotiable gives the average Joe a nice warm feeling inside which he will keep until the looters come. To convince him there is a reason to try......now that is grand.

"An admirable but rather futile effort my dear Matrim."

Most likely but hey here's to trying.
I mean lets review, most people on this site know these things as fact.

1. Our society one way or another will fall and soon (soon being within 20-50 years or so)
2. there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop this
3. Someone is going to forge a new society in the end for better or worse (assuming we don't play the nuke card and just end it all)

Why not try to band together to forge a more fulfilling and equal world? I just think we have done a real good job in the PO community of alienating everyone else and perhaps making them feel a little stupid. We need IMO to find a way to make people feel less intimidated by the issue?

anywho more feed back would be good keep it coming

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', '
')We need IMO to find a way to make people feel less intimidated by the issue?

[Matrim]

"Perhaps they all understand that even if you sugar coat it, it's still cyanide, which would mean that they will coninue to disregard reality until it bites them hard."

That certainly is true of a great many people (a matter of psychological conditioning maybe?) but not all. The idea I'm having is to convince them that there are alternatives to the cyanide pill. PO doesn't have to neccessarily be a horrible thing. It could be our only chance to make good of a world almost entirely gone bad.

Certainly it will be extremely difficult to turn any of this into a positive scenario but I think it can be done. We just need more people trying to affect change in a positive way. It very likely will be a futile effort, but at least we'll be able to say we tried. I think the point I'm really trying to make is that it's up to the 6 billion or so people who have no power at present in this world to make a difference because the powers that be just don't care. Since the people on this forum are some of the few who recognize this problem why don't we start sharing what we know in a way that won't make everyone think that we're lunatics?

Call it sugar-coating if you must, hell I suppose that's exactly what it is, but more people will listen, period. More people on our side simply helps our chances.

Will it work? In reality I doubt it, but when the badman has a knife to your throat do you lay down and die simply because the odds are against you? Or do you fight?

Maybe no one will listen until reality comes along with the cup of cyn-aid, but maybe just maybe we could actually open some eyes instead of just being laughed at until it's too late.

Peace

[azreal60]

So basically what your saying is because of the difficulty most people have listening to such gloom and doom, we should sugar coat it inorder for more people to listen?

Well, I admire your drive, because I definately think that will be needed. I would say even sugar coated a number of people just won't listen. I also have to say what others will say about this idea, that a dieoff is nessesary and if you sugar coat it that's just more people who might accidently survive that shouldn't have. Now, that's not my opinion, but I know someone will say that at some point.

I pretty much already have begun doing this. I almost never mention the die off aspects of peakoil anymore. I simply mention it from a challenge and a problem perspective. Kinda like telling your neighbor a helpful tale tone. It works pretty well I've observed.

[Matrim]

Azreal,

Thats exactly what I'm saying, and yes I agree most people still probably won't get it.

And while I realize that a die-off is necessary, it's also completely unavoidable. The more people who are aware of these problems the easier the transition through dieoff will be and the more chance we will have of preserving the good things we have learned.

I mean isn't that what this should be all about. Preserving the good weeding out the bad and starting fresh? While I think we should keep our humility and stop pretending we know EVERYTHING, the fact is we do know a lot of useful things. If we had the chance to start over I'm quite sure that we could make a lot better go at living better more fulfilling lives with the added bonus of not destroying our planet.

Maybe I'm wrong but thats what I'll be trying for.

Peace

[Matrim]

One more sidenote before I shutup. I think too many people who are aware of this issue are focused on stoping the coming trainwreck and keeping our society intact as is. Our society is BAD, VERY BAD. It's a twisted violent and in general ass-backwards place where we are conditioned from a young age to not give a damn about anything but ourselves, and thats wrong. This world HAS to change.

Most people are good people at heart, but they've been taught since an early age not to help anyone but themselves (unless they're paying). Imagine a world where everyone had been taught to put others ahead of themselves, maybe we wouldn't have to worry so much about ourselves if someone else gave a damn.

Just a thought.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', 'W')e just need to show the neccessity for change in an inviting and appealing way to the masses.

[galacticsurfer]

like ex-smokers or health fanatics who keep telling people they're gonna die when they don't change their ways but just get those people pissed off. Generally however antismokers did not get things changed until the scientific evidence was combined with general publkic awaeness which became a political movement and got things done banning smoking in public places, etc.

To be a realist and neither a dreamer or doomer is to realize that the trajectory is there just like with smoking and global warming or anything else. It just takes a little bit of time. There are always people ahead of the curve(do own researchin internet) and people who are behind the curve(sheeple who learn it from national enquirer or Fox News). By the time everyone is on board about the big crisis, things will be done big time to try to save the situation because the political will will exist to make big changes like in every crisis era, wars, famines, mass diseases, etc.

[Whitefang]

Yes, when we all stand with our backs against the wall facing death, we will have the motivation to change.

I had to loose some personal nasty habits and were unwilling to give them up until I nearly died last year.

The survivors will be reborn, we just need to keep our knowledge and souls intact. I propose to start with universities from wood after the blast. Store books, tools, food in caves and learn live with nature.

If we would have decades, we could arrange the shift on a happy note, now we are late, 60's were the dead line and the pay is the death of billions.

We need to get going and prepare for the inevitable, leave town while still connected with society, then leave for a while when things go up in flames, waves on east coast, shakings.
Economy down will bring civil war at the door, a promise.

Egomania in form of self pity, mine included, brought humanity down.

JCwhitefang speaking, no excuse for going down now.

[Matrim]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat are your solutions for change, Matrim? What positive changes are you making in your own life and promoting for others?

[Matrim]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')he political will will exist to make big changes like in every crisis era, wars, famines, mass diseases, etc

[azreal60]

Fixed... =)

I think your spirtual notions are interesting. Have you ever read Daniel Quinn? I think you would find his books quite fascinating, especially the Ishmael series.

[Matrim]

azreal,

I never have but you can be assured that I will look into it

Peace

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Matrim', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat are your solutions for change, Matrim? What positive changes are you making in your own life and promoting for others?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', '
')Reason? I have some modicum of social skills.

Best,

Matt

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', '
')Reason? I have some modicum of social skills.

Best,

Matt

[PenultimateManStanding]

the happy middle ground, how sweet, how impossible. . .