[Cobra_Strike]

I am all for a hard crash. I think the suffering of many, and their deaths sooner would beat out the other option...suffering for a long period.

Mitigation stuff will mean suffering for most, for the longest.

[Micki]

There seems to be a lot of romanticising about the hard crash among the youngsters out there.
It will be amusing to see how happy they are when there is no bread in the shops, no money to pay for electricity or rent and the parents are unable to support their leeching kids.
I think the western world has had it so good for so long that we've forgotten what hardship is like.
Or do people think they can just go out there and grab a piece of land and suddenly have a succesful self sufficient farm going? Sound a bit like Homer Simpsons solution by living under the sea.


I am not so so keen on a slow agonising downward slope either, but I fail to see how the hard landing is going to be so much better. As I see it, plague or cholera, just do the best you can with either one.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', 'T')here seems to be a lot of romanticising about the hard crash among the youngsters out there.
It will be amusing to see how happy they are when there is no bread in the shops, no money to pay for electricity or rent and the parents are unable to support their leeching kids.
I think the western world has had it so good for so long that we've forgotten what hardship is like.
Or do people think they can just go out there and grab a piece of land and suddenly have a succesful self sufficient farm going? Sound a bit like Homer Simpsons solution by living under the sea.


I am not so so keen on a slow agonising downward slope either, but I fail to see how the hard landing is going to be so much better. As I see it, plague or cholera, just do the best you can with either one.

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '.')..

Bring on the doom. The quicker it comes, the quicker it will be over for the remaining to enjoy.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '.')..

Bring on the doom. The quicker it comes, the quicker it will be over for the remaining to enjoy.

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arocoun', 'H')ard or soft crash, I want a crash that will allow the earth to rebuild natural habitats and balances.

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '.')..

Bring on the doom. The quicker it comes, the quicker it will be over for the remaining to enjoy.

[Micki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he longer the soft landing takes the more damage we will inflict upon the planet and the less time I will have in anarchy paradise.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', 'N')o it is not. But we can switch to German if you want, or Italian. My French is unfortunately as bad as my English.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '
')
If it isn't your first language I'll cut you even more slack.

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he longer the soft landing takes the more damage we will inflict upon the planet and the less time I will have in anarchy paradise.

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '.')..

Bring it on, tell your President to drop the bomb!

BTW I prefer anarchy paradise over anarchy hell ...

[PolestaR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lighthouse', '.')..

Bring it on, tell your President to drop the bomb!

BTW I prefer anarchy paradise over anarchy hell ...

[Micki]

Anarchy will only work in a world where people unselfishly co-operate. The "anarchists" here seem to be just interested in setting up a future for themselves and gladly see that the rest of the world suffer endlessly. That type of thinking will bring hell rather than paradise.
This is exactly the reason why I think anarchy will fail completly and would in its full extent not lead to people working individually and trading with others but to mobs robbing and killing.

As these mobs would have self proclaimed leaders and the mobs would fight eachother for valuable resources, we would by definition not have a sociaty with anarchy, just smaller versions of nations in a world war.

[BastardSquad]

My vision of the hard crash - we're talking "run for your lives!! we're all gonna die!!!!" - scenario goes something like this.

At least 25% of the population immediately just rolls over and dies!

Roughly 50% of the population heads for the hills,but less than 20% of them have the intelligence,resourcefulness,endurance,and knowledge to know what to do,and be able to do once they're there in order to survive.

The other 25%(give or take) stay in the cities carving out their own little feudal estates(warlords) until all available food and resources are exhausted.

At this point it becomes a struggle between the most intelligent and resourceful suvivors and the most rutheless and cruel!

Look on the bright side,if you're one of the survivors(in either camp) life will be anything but boring.

[Lighthouse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BastardSquad', '.')..

Look on the bright side,if you're one of the survivors(in either camp) life will be anything but boring.

[MadMarcus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '
')This is exactly the reason why I think anarchy will fail completly and would in its full extent not lead to people working individually and trading with others but to mobs robbing and killing.

As these mobs would have self proclaimed leaders and the mobs would fight eachother for valuable resources, we would by definition not have a sociaty with anarchy, just smaller versions of nations in a world war.

[Battle_Scarred_Galactico]

My ideal is also anarachy, but I also know it wouldn't work at the momment because theres just too many people, simple as that.

Those hoping for a really bad crash, if you're prepared to die in it fair enough. I think most people would be history with-in a few weeks, as Matt pointed out, diseases like dysentry would be rampant.

I'm not saying a hard crash won't happen, none of us know what will, save the fact that life will be much harder than now.

[XOVERX]

I am not in the "hard crash" group. I have not given up on the survival of all civilization yet. While I am preparing for a "hard crash," I much prefer a "soft crash."

Humanity must try to walk through the eye of the fossil fuel needle. First and formost that means generation of electricity. So nuclear plants need to be built as quickly as possible. Of course, that isn't happening, so I keep preparing for the "hard crash."

I hope that once oil (gasoline) prices reach a critical mass in price ($6 to $8 per gallon), the mighty herd of American followers will awake, demand "something be done," and maybe all-out programs for alternative energies will commence in earnest, including nuclear.

Some kind of "crash" is inevitable. Billions will surely die over a period of a few years. Even in a "soft crash." But if the crash is "soft" -- that is, once the population contractions level out -- if electricity can continue to be generated, then civilization as we know it will not necessarily be lost. Pipe-dream? Perhaps.

As for the political comments made upthread, there was not much "freedom" historically in civilization prior to the late 18th century. The period of anarchy that will follow a "hard crash" will be short-lived because hominoids are social animals, and they will create social structures after any crash. The romantic notion of "living in your rainforest" will not last very long at all.

I believe "freedom" (to be stupid, for most Americans) will survive much better in a "soft crash" than in a "hard crash." The government that arises from the ashes of a "hard crash," if mankind survives, will surely be those of ancient times. And none of those even remotely resembles what we are accustomed to in America today.

In the meantime, I think I'll go buy another box of 9mm.

[MattSavinar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', 'T')here seems to be a lot of romanticising about the hard crash among the youngsters out there.
It will be amusing to see how happy they are when there is no bread in the shops, no money to pay for electricity or rent and the parents are unable to support their leeching kids.
I think the western world has had it so good for so long that we've forgotten what hardship is like.
Or do people think they can just go out there and grab a piece of land and suddenly have a succesful self sufficient farm going? Sound a bit like Homer Simpsons solution by living under the sea.


I am not so so keen on a slow agonising downward slope either, but I fail to see how the hard landing is going to be so much better. As I see it, plague or cholera, just do the best you can with either one.

[arocoun]

First off, I would like to make it clear that I don't necessarily favor a hard crash over a soft crash, if the soft crash leads to something better for the world. That said, I must say that I see a lot of both unrealistic romanticizing and demonizing of what a hard crash would bring.

For instance, those who favor a soft crash seem to believe that a hard crash will lead to a situation much like feudal Europe, when everyone was slaving all day to serve their lords, and disease was prevalant. They seem to think that before the late 20th century, all of humanity was in a constant state of misery without the greatness of advanced civilization.

Those who favor a hard crash seem to believe that eventually, all of humanity will hold hands and create an eco-friendly, harmonious anarchy. And, they seem to grossly underestimate the grand change a hard crash would bring to their lives.

Both sides are kinda right, and kinda wrong. First, let there be no mistake: If a hard crash occurs, the crash itself will be hard, without doubt. Those who aren't ALREADY transitioning to a more technologically primitive lifestyle are going to suffer, and those without knowledge or skill with primitive survival--or those with bad luck--will die.

As for the aftermath, what will happen with people, society, and civilization will depend on what people make of it. Things will definitely be more localized, leading to many different peoples and societies existing. One place may be a haven of eco-villages, anarchists, and gatherer-hunters; another place may become a communist or fascist dictatorship; and another place may become a terrible, dog eat dog anarchy. Assuming you survive a hypothetical hard crash, you would have some level of ability to determine what kind of society or lack thereof becomes of your own area.

As for civilization itself, our current civilization would not survive, which can be both a good and bad thing. Yes, our civilization has created many great things, like medicines, farming, and sanitation, but these things are in actuality solutions to problems created by civilization (through overpopulation and crowding) to begin with. What determines whether the fall of civilization is good or bad for you is how well you can live without it.

Ironically, then, both sides may be correct in their attitude regarding a hard crash's effect on civilization. I've got a feeling that those who favor a hard crash would actually be better off with a hard crash, since they are already wanting and willing to live without modern civ. And likewise, those who favor a soft crash will likely actually have all the problems they fear from a hard crash, because they don't have as strong a desire to do without modern civilization's technologies.

If this is a little long, I can summarize by saying that we should avoid romanticizing about a hard crash; and doing the opposite, and viewing it as the end of everything good in the world. Indeed, there are many other things, like government, anarchy, etc. that people need to think more level-headedly about.

I guess I'd also like to say not to get too argumentative over hard crash/soft crash, because the simple truth is we can't control what happens to society. We can only really control what happens to ourselves, and to a lesser extent, those around us. For society as a whole, "what happens happens."