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Am I being taken for a fool?

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Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby SoothSayer » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 13:29:47

I have been reading many public pronouncements about oil supply, prices etc over the last few days ... and the related posts here.

I now have a headache ... and I am no nearer The Truth.

I am not normally a conspiracy theorist ... but I have a horrid suspicion that I am being deliberately befuddled by contradictory "noise" deliberately spread by the media and/or politicians.

Suppose PO is really true - or something equally disturbing is hiding in the cellar - then the Powers That Be really would like to keep potential activists such as us totally confused for as long as possible.

It would be a lot easier, cheaper and safer than arresting or muzzling any of us.

It has also suddenly occured to me that there MUST be a few "plants" from governments and/or the oil companies monitoring this forum ... and maybe even spreading disinformation here.

However I hope I am wrong, and that Peak Oil has simply arrived 5 years early thus confusing everyone, governments included.

(If you don't hear from me again you will know what's happened ... :-x )

Edit: typo
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 13:33:35

Of course this board has been infiltrated. This is the single most hit forum on the subject. Even an incompotent could figure out "Hey, maybe we should find out what they are saying."

As for the white noise coming at you, try to tune it out. Keep your eyes on the prize (survival). If it doesn't happen in your lifetime, you've lost nothing. But if it does, then you can hit the ground running.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby jdumars » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 13:52:21

I admit it... I am a plant. A ficus tree to be exact.

One of the difficulties with complex issues like this is that everyone thinks they have the right answer. The Truth (to use your upper case spelling) is that events are in a state of perpetual uncertainty no different than exists on the quantum level. Events only make sense when viewed in their aggregate after the fact and even then they can be completely counterintuitive. The media is chirping the loudest because it has the biggest bullhorn, but it really doesn't reflect The Truth. It is simply another vantage point to watch things unfold from.

My suggestion is to find a few sources of information you find trustowrthy and reliable and stick with them. Filter your own life in such a way that you are focused on an authentic existence independent of what exists in the world. The only Truth we ever get truly close to is the Truth inside ourselves.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby SoothSayer » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 14:17:15

Golly gosh .. I created this thread in the "Current Events" area because I was discussing the mixed messages we are currently getting from the media & the oil producers .... and within seconds my post is moved to the remote wastelands of the "Open Discussion" off topic area.

Well, that just about kills the exposure of my post: apparently off-topic and also no longer showing in the "last 24 hours" list.

My original point may have been proved I think.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Chaparral » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 14:31:40

I too am a plant: a philodendron to be exact.




seriously tho, you are not the first one to surmise that information overload may be a more effective strategy than outright propaganda and censorship.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 14:35:29

I'm a mushroom, a fungi to be with. The Open Forum is where the free spirits hang out, no need to feel dejected.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 15:22:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', 'I')t has also suddenly occured to me that there MUST be a few "plants" from governments and/or the oil companies monitoring this forum ... and maybe even spreading disinformation here.


You have far more faith in the government and big corporations than I do!

After working in both for decades, I can tell you this with the utmost confidence: They are as lazy and clueless as anyone else.

I used to think otherwise. I used to think "There's somebody up there who really knows what's going on. Surely, somewhere up in the higher levels of management someone has a grand plan and is purposefully guiding this behemoth in the right direction".

There is not. Even captain of industry Bill Gates is as petty, horny, and silly as anyone else. The "movers and shakers" are just people like anyone else. I've dined and drank and gone hunting with them. Yes, they are smarter than your average bear, but not substantially so, not as much as you would hope.

I admit, it was disturbing and disconcerting to learn this. I had higher hopes.

Trust me, no one is earning a salary and bennies for the purpose of sitting in an office spreading disinformation on peakoil.com. At best there are a few hacks churing out press releases and tempting journalists at places like the Ford Foundation, the Heritage Institute, and various gov./corp. public information offices.

But then, maybe *I* am one of them! :)
Conform . Consume . Obey .
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 16:07:13

It's like during the '70s when they had all of those deep cover police officers posing as student radicals to stir up trouble. At one meeting of the SDS, there were 11 people, 9 of them were Red Squad!

It's the same thing here. A good 50 of the posters here are secret agents, all ratting on eachother! :-D

Your tax dollars at work...
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby gnm » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 16:16:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'I')t's like during the '70s when they had all of those deep cover police officers posing as student radicals to stir up trouble. At one meeting of the SDS, there were 11 people, 9 of them were Red Squad!

It's the same thing here. A good 50 of the posters here are secret agents, all ratting on eachother! :-D

Your tax dollars at work...


Don't listen to him hes working for the man!

:lol:
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 16:50:58

From my point of view, mixed messages are irrelevant. I've decided the better way for me to live and I'm going to pursue that, PO or no PO.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby The_Virginian » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 17:05:30

Hey it's ok to question PO "doomsdayers".

But even if supply is not an issue yet.....one day it will be.

It may even be another 20 years before we get to where Cambell thinks we are now...(Venezuelain low grade-coal like- crude may help) BUT DELAY is not DUBUNKED... cheap oil is more difficult to find, AND THE MAJOR OIL CO.S will EXPLOIT THIS... it does give one a diffrent perspective to know we are being used, but it still does not change PO.

As for "Gubberment" types...no doubt you are correct.

But when someone smell a stinker....you start questioning the accuser...best not to "go there."
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby kmann » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 17:38:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'I')t's like during the '70s when they had all of those deep cover police officers posing as student radicals


That was the '60s. The '70s had a much more insidious evil: disco!
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Zardoz » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 17:45:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', 'G')olly gosh .. I created this thread in the "Current Events" area because I was discussing the mixed messages we are currently getting from the media & the oil producers .... and within seconds my post is moved to the remote wastelands of the "Open Discussion" off topic area.

Well, that just about kills the exposure of my post: apparently off-topic and also no longer showing in the "last 24 hours" list.

My original point may have been proved I think.



This is basically a Conspiracy Theory thread. TPTB who run this site have wisely decided to concentrate all such threads in this forum, because otherwise they would be scattered all over the site, in every forum, which would pretty much destroy the credibility of the site, wouldn't it?

Imagine a new visitor browsing through and finding conspiracy nonsense everywhere. How could the site be taken seriously?

This is where this thread belongs.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby killJOY » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 18:12:53

I've had great difficulty navigating this subject, although I've studied it for 2 and a half years, taught it to four different classes of students, and learned the basics of it 25 years ago.

I received some great advice from someone at the oil drum site who wrote an article that I responded to with a PM. I asked what I should hang onto as far as a basic touchstone when I'm inundated with contradictory evidence, naysayers, and personal attacks by "debunkers." He said
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust remember: you can't have endless growth against a finite resource.


K.I.S,S.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Kickinthegob » Mon 24 Apr 2006, 20:49:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', 't')he Powers That Be really would like to keep potential activists such as us totally confused for as long as possible.

Sometimes I do a google news search on "oil" to see what the MSM is saying, just a quick scan of the headlines. The other day I saw something like this...

6 hours ago:OPEC predicts falling oil prices
4 hours ago:OPEC predicts long term high oil prices

Ya know, I rarely read these pieces because there is no meat. In fact I have almost completely tuned out of MSM altogether, what exactly are they going to tell you about oil that you don't already know. In depth articles, opeds and various research sites like this one are where the meat is. What would you expect from the people who base their revenue stream on car and real estate adverts and general mass consumerism, not to mention all of the "plants" in big media these days - we are all being taken for fools!
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby SoothSayer » Tue 25 Apr 2006, 03:13:37

>> This is basically a Conspiracy Theory thread.

It wasn't intended to be.

I wasn't suggesting UFOs or aliens or the Illuminati are regular posters.

I simply had a sudden flash of concern that the "noise" level relating to PO discussion seems suspiciously high.

Anyway, it seems that I'm now officially a wacko ... that's a first for me!
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Doly » Tue 25 Apr 2006, 03:43:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '
')I am not normally a conspiracy theorist ... but I have a horrid suspicion that I am being deliberately befuddled by contradictory "noise" deliberately spread by the media and/or politicians.


I agree that there is some deliberate noise in the media. Some anti-peak oil articles that I've read are genuinely skeptical, but some don't make sense to me unless the writer is trying to confuse matters.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '
')It has also suddenly occured to me that there MUST be a few "plants" from governments and/or the oil companies monitoring this forum ... and maybe even spreading disinformation here.


Mike Lynch, who is a good suspect of deliberate misinformation, posts in the Mike Lynch thread as "spike". John Denver is clearly here to confuse matters, and is obviously quite intelligent, but I don't think he has anything to do with the any of TPTB (except possibly with Aaron, our site admin... I keep suspecting there's something there). Apart from those, I don't think there's anybody else deliberately spreading confusion, though there are a few seriously confused people that don't help matters any.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '
')However I hope I am wrong, and that Peak Oil has simply arrived 5 years early thus confusing everyone, governments included.


I don't know if the surprise is that it arrived early, or simply that it arrived. It should have been expected, but we think so much in the short term that it wouldn't surprise me if most of TPTB weren't expecting it at all, until it was on top of them.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby anneliese-nyc » Sun 30 Apr 2006, 08:06:09

It is a given that this board is being perused everyday .To that I say just to continue as they are not. Let them take the pulse of the people .

A few years ago I bought a cat of a certain breed from a breeder in the Washington DC area .(he was an older alpha cat and wreaking havoc and I guess the person I bought it from wanted a new bloodline) That person worked in the military gleaning info nationally and world wide trying to tie actions, trends and threads together . The spouse of that person was a hacker for the military . We got into the conversation somehow but probably because I had been dating an activist/hacker NOT in the military.All were fascinating people .All were coined from the same metal...only flip sides.

Perhaps we may enlighten any who wander upon this site . Be yourself, do not censor yourself because of fear .Fear paralyzes .
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby skeptic » Sun 30 Apr 2006, 08:34:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '
')Suppose PO is really true -


Soothsayer,

you dont have to suppose . It's a matter of simple logic. All that is required is an understanding of the word 'finite'.

It means a discreet ammount which can be quantified rather then an infinite ammount.Thats step one.

Step 2 is to accept that the earth is a finite body - it has a measurable size and volume

Step 3 is to accept that oil only comes from inside the earth. As the earth has a finite volume so then must oil, as it is impossible to fit an infinite volume inside a finite one. That means that there is a finite ammount of oil which can have a quantity of so many trillion barrels attached to it.

We are also using oil at a finite rate - currently plateaued at somewhere between 84 and 85 million barrels a day.

From experience we know that oil production of any considered region (field, country, continent) when graphed follows very roughly a bellcurve. Oil is first discovered, production starts, it reaches a maximum rate - the peak of production and then declines. the total area under the curve representing the ammount of oil produced - which is never 100% of what was in the ground, a portion is always left behind. Like the last apple on the tallest thinnest branch on the tree - too difficult and dangerous to reach even with a ladder.

There is no reason to suppose the pattern observed so far in the majority of producing countries in the world - a rise of production from nothing, a peak, and a decline, will not apply also the the world as a whole. If you accept that Oil is a finite resource produced millions of years ago under unusual conditions of intense global warming, and not being produced today ( at any rate or quantity significant to energy supplies) then Peak Oil (the point of maximum rate of production) is not open to question. It's a logical inevitability.

As physically inevitable as the sun coming up tomorrow morning. The only questions are when, what shape will the peak take ( a steep post peak decline will be disasterous) and what can and should we do about it, both now and post peak.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '
')Suppose PO is really true - or something equally disturbing is hiding in the cellar - then the Powers That Be really would like to keep potential activists such as us totally confused for as long as possible.

The "Powers that Be" are just a bunch of stupid rich old white men who are even more confused than you are. THERE IS NOBODY IN CONTROL. That's not the way the world works. order emerges spontaeously from a sum-over of human activity. There is no man behind the curtains pulling the strings. An American president can sleep his way through his term of office and it DOESNT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. Reagan proved that in his second term. Everybody else just gets on with it. This is probably not a bad idea as there is less opportunity to fuck things up when you are asleep...
Last edited by skeptic on Sun 30 Apr 2006, 15:21:11, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Am I being taken for a fool?

Unread postby Eli » Sun 30 Apr 2006, 14:56:00

Soothsayer, a couple of things.

One good one that cannot be over looked is the fact that if Saudi Arabia has peaked the world has. If Saudi Arabia is peaking now and that is the possibility that Matt Simmons raises in his book then throw out all the estimates of when PO is going to happen because it is here. And if you want to know what is going on in SA look at what Kuwait has been saying.

The other one is that, yes ,absolutely there is more contradictory chatter out there now but if you examine the noise that says PO is a long, long way off it is almost always written by someone who is looking at it as an economic problem.

Many conventional economists and analysts cannot face PO because it does not just mean a slowdown in the economy but an end to the 150 to 200 year history of the way economics has worked in the past.

So expect more contradictory chatter because as PO becomes more and more accepted the more the conventional wisdom of economics will oppose it.
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