[Caoimhan]

In addition to Tanada's response to pstarr, we have to also look at the research that is being done into organic farming methods. Advanced organic farming methods are producing nearly the same yields as conventional "chemical" farming.

These organic methods are FAR less energy-intense than convetional methods.

[BabyPeanut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', 'H')igh demand and low supply?

[BabyPeanut]

[url=http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_gasoline.html]
click me[/url]

This is why gasoline prices went down: Imports surged.

[BabyPeanut]

Hey Let's Import Diesel Too Now!

The solution to the US energy needs? More refined product!

[url=http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_distillate.html]
(click me)[/url]

[url=http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp]
(click me)[/url]

Diesel imports go up, prices come down. Much easier than any other solution.

[rogerhb]

I would have no problem with the US importing diesel and petrol from Europe if they paid the European consumer taxes on it to the Europeans and then paid the US duties on top of that.

[Peak_Modernity]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oiless', 'D')iesels run very well on furnace oil. This goes for the older ones I've dealt with, don't know about the heavily emission controlled electronically controlled new cars though...
Used to know a guy that made a very good living pumping out old heating oil tanks, he'd get payed a fortune to pump them out, remove the tanks, and dispose of the oil. He disposed it right into his equipment and diesel trucks. (After separating the water and filtering it of course.)

[Madpaddy]

Diesel is slightly more expensive than petrol here in ireland. My theory is that the retailers are increasing the price of diesel so they can sell petrol cheaper.

[pip]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oiless', 'D')iesels run very well on furnace oil. This goes for the older ones I've dealt with, don't know about the heavily emission controlled electronically controlled new cars though...
Used to know a guy that made a very good living pumping out old heating oil tanks, he'd get payed a fortune to pump them out, remove the tanks, and dispose of the oil. He disposed it right into his equipment and diesel trucks. (After separating the water and filtering it of course.)

[Micki]

Does anyone know which type of car engine (Diesel or Petrol) would be the easiest to convert to alternative fuel?
i.e. to ethanol, liquified coal, bio diesel....

Can the same be done with boat engines (outboarders or stern drive)???

How is the convertion done?

[drew]

A diesel will convert to bio diesel with almost no mods. These involve changing fuel filters often in the initial stages due to the solvent effect of bio on hydrocarbon sludge in the fuel system. There are some reports that older diesel FI systems have incompatible materials in them such as gaskets and seals that must be changed out. As for the fuel itself, it must be diluted with a lot of straight diesel in cold weather because biodiesel gels badly. Alternatively a heater could be rigged up to keep the fuel hot enough.

Gas motors convert to alcohol fairly easily, but require a recalibration of the fuel system to provide the correct air fuel ratio for alcohol. Ethanol is ok for gaskets etc, I believe, but it is a known fact that wood alcohol (methanol) is corrosive to the fuel systems of gas engines, and they must be heavily modified to run methanol.

Recalibrating the fuel system would require different size jets, needles, etc in a carburetor, and possibly bigger injectors with FI as well as a new map for the computer.

I am a very good mechanic, but would find converting a gas motor daunting compared to going the bio diesel route.

As for boats, inboard diesels would be easiest, followed by inboard gas. I don't know about outboards though since the vast majority are 2 stroke. I am a huge fan of two stroke motorbikes and have never known of anyone running alcohol in one. Alcohol always seems to be with 4 strokes.

Drew

[aflatoxin]

Burning Ethanol in a gasoline engine, at a minumum will require adjusting the air/fuel mixture. This involves modifying the carburetor, or fuel injection.

There is a good possibility that the fuel lines, seals, plastic components are not resistant to ethanol in the same way they are to gasoline. Thus, it should be anticipated that every hose, line, seal, and plastic component in contact with the ethanol fuel will need to be replaced at some point.

In addition to these issues, it is possible that internal engine components may not be ideally suited for use with ethanol. Metal alloys inside the engine, oils used for lubrication, design issues such as compression ratio and camshaft timing might not work out.

In the US, cars are sold as "fuel flexible" if the engine can tolerate Ethanol.

I tried running my old mercedes and my newish (turbo) volvo by putting 5 gallons in an empty tank) on E85 (85% ethanol). The benz barely made it around the block so I could fill it the rest of the way up with regular gasoline and I was worried for about a month that it would never run right again. THe volvo made it about 50 feet and stopped running. I drained the E85 out of the tank, and filled it with gasoline, and it ran fine after that.

I also have an older Ford diesel pickup. It runs great on Kerosene, Jet Fuel, Diesel (both dyed and undyed), B20 biodiesel, homemade biodiesel, and filtered vegatable oil.

It will run, although not optimally, on waste motor oil from Natural gas fueled engines mixed with diesel, diesel-diluted waste hydraulic oil and transmission fluid/diesel. It appears that if the injection pump can pump it, and it burns, the truck will run on it.

There have been no modifications on the truck. B20 makes it purr like a kitten, the gas mileage is better, and it smells like fried chicken while I'm driving it.

I've never tried running gasoline in it, and I'm not going to try because I already know it won't work.

So, if it was me, and I was keen on experimenting with alternative fuels, I would try it with an older diesel vehicle. I'm told that older non-turbo VW engines with mechanical injection (Volvo and Audi engines are similar), and pretty much any 4 or 5 cylinder mercedes engine are IDEAL canidates for this. I would try Mitsubishi/dodge 4-cylinder truck engines, and perhaps isuzu angines as well.

I would not try this with a new CDI VW or Mercedes, a Powerstroke, Duramax, or EFI Cummins. The reason is not because the engine wont run on a different fuel, it is because newer diesel engines are EXTREMELY expensive to fix.

I once did some engineering work for a client on a pulverized coal slurry fueled stationary engine. It was a total design failure. The fuel had a nasty way of hardening up like concrete in the fuel lines.

[Kingcoal]

Most of the gas I buy is already 10% ethanol. I think that we'll see about 50% in the coming years. I'm not sure about engine mods. The computer might have to be reprogrammed to deal with the higher ethanol content.

Biodiesel is gaining popularity in the US. I've heard that some diesel engine manufacturers recommend running 10% biodiesel to help keep the engine clean. In Pennsylvania, the government is funding 12 biodiesel plants across the State which will use soy oil. PA is also building a coal to liquid fuel plant. This facility will make home heating oil, diesel and gasoline - all 100% pure hydrocarbon (no sulfur, etc) out of coal and water.

[aflatoxin]

Drew,

I've seen 2-strokes running a mixture of Methanol and nitromethane. The bike running this was scary looking, and the rider was insane. The engine supposedly made over 300 hp from 250cc. I was about 17 when I saw this thing, and the details are fuzzy now.

[Caoimhan]

You have to be careful when converting either gasoline or diesel engines these days. If either kind of engine is a fairly recent model, it is FAR more complex than your average tinkerer would care to deal with.

A common-rail diesel, for instance, has a fuel system that maintains injection pressure across all cylinders, which allows for computer controlled timing on the firing, which, in turn, allows for much more precise fuel-air mixture at time of firing.

Older engines are easier to work with because they use more analog methods of controling the engine performance.

[Pops]

Diesel - Gasoline Price Loop

I wrote some time ago that higher fuel and fertilizer costs might cause a farmer sitting at the kitchen table to decide to take marginal land out of production or at least switch to a less intensive crop, especially away from corn. And if it made sense for one to switch then it obviously would make sense for many to do the same.

My optimistic point at the time was that some of that marginal land might be split off and sold and the availability of small parcels of land might increase.

Anyway, it seems at least the first part is happening:
"If realized, this will be the lowest corn acreage since 2001 when 75.7 million acres were planted for all purposes. Expected acreage is down from last year in most States as producers intend to switch to other less input intensive crops due to high fertilizer and fuel costs. [like soybeans]"
http://www.agweb.com/get_article.asp?pa ... rc=gennews

Combine that little tidbit with the fact that the increase in ethanol use in gasoline is driving up demand for corn – I think about 15% of the crop goes into ethanol production now and is growing.

So along with those smart folks who play the commodities game and make absolutely nothing but money, it seems higher diesel and nat. gas prices indirectly cause the price of gasoline to go even higher.

[MrBill]

My take on the ethanol story is that it will increase the demand for marginal land, as prime agricultural land is taken out of food and feed production for the manufacture of ethanol. This will change feedlot economics as less corn goes for feed, increasing the demand for soybean meal in the USA or canola meal in Canada as well as for wheat, oats and barely, which can be grown with less heat units than corn and soybeans. But it will also increase the demand for marginal land that is used for pasture and forage crops like hay and alfalfa.

One of the main efficiency gains from the switch from draught power to the internal combustion engine was that fewer animals had to be bred and maintained for transport. This left more land for crop production either for human or for animal feed for human consumption.

Now this process will go into reverse. As productive farmland is taken out of food production and used for the manufacture of transport fuel those efficiency gains will disappear. Especially as aquifiers are depleting curbing irrigation or making it more expensive. In the end this may mean higher food prices, but even in the medium term it should increase the demand for all forms of marginal farmland, especially as urban sprawl has also reduced the total amount of agricultural land available for crop production. Also, arable land that is ill-suited for agriculture may be used for silviculture if ag biotech can develop the enzymes needed to breakdown wood fiber for ethanol production and develop faster growing trees.

So in the short-term the economics of higher fuel prices may discourage farmers from planting on marginal land, but this is similar to the negative economics that lead to under investment in mines & minerals when commodity prices were low. Then we played catch-up later to compensate for that under investment, and we all know how that has ended.

Return of the family farm? Well, maybe the recovery of the rural community to a viable future again.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')I'm a big advocate of managed grazing, one family down the road raised what looks to be about 1 angus steer per acre and fed no hay this winter by managing their grass well.

[Pops]

Interesting take Mr Bill.

According to this: http://www.beeflinks.com/distillers.htm distillers grains can actually be better than straight grains in the feedlot – of course that depends on the price.

I'm a big advocate of managed grazing, one family down the road raised what looks to be about 1 angus steer per acre and fed no hay this winter by managing their grass well. With a good grass/legume mix and well managed grazing not many nutrients leave the farm and virtually no energy is expended except the grower's.

you also touched on other benefit I see is the increase in employment in the rural areas where lots of corn is grown due to ethanol processing. In my mind that increase in money floating around is much better invested here than where it goes when we import oil. This may be the last chance to repair some of our crumbling rural infrastructure.

[Pops]

It would be insane if there were only one big pasture. Read up a little on management intensive grazing (the emphasis is on the management intensive part), it’s pretty interesting - if you're interested. Just a few quick points:

With 20 or 24 paddocks and a week at most on each paddock, the grass basically rests 50 weeks a year.

Additionally, since the cattle are forced to eat everything in front of them they can’t selectively graze only plants they like to the ground so the plant mix can be more diverse and so healthier. This is the main management part; deciding when and to what paddock they should move next.

Finally, because they are eating more and walking less (because of the density) they trample the soil less; so less erosion is less likely and maybe best of all, manure distribution is very uniform.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')t would be insane if there were only one big pasture. Read up a little on management intensive grazing (the emphasis is on the management intensive part), it’s pretty interesting - if you're interested. Just a few quick points:

With 20 or 24 paddocks and a week at most on each paddock, the grass basically rests 50 weeks a year.

Additionally, since the cattle are forced to eat everything in front of them they can’t selectively graze only plants they like to the ground so the plant mix can be more diverse and so healthier. This is the main management part; deciding when and to what paddock they should move next.

Finally, because they are eating more and walking less (because of the density) they trample the soil less; so less erosion is less likely and maybe best of all, manure distribution is very uniform.