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Are you powering down?

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.
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How much have you cut your consumption of energy (gas, petrol, electricity) since becoming peak aware or in the last 5 years

Poll ended at Wed 05 Apr 2006, 14:58:12

0% or negligible
15
No votes
10%
8
No votes
20%
9
No votes
30%
9
No votes
40%
4
No votes
50%
5
No votes
greater than 60%
8
No votes
Powering up!
7
No votes
 
Total votes : 65

Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 01 Apr 2006, 15:22:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mididoctors', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mididoctors', ' ')I don't pretend to know whether this jevons paradox holds true or not but it's a premise I think we should try hard to test out.


Store owners do it every day...they put stuff on sale to increase sales.

Works every time. Nothing to test.




every time?

why is there unsold stock?

is energy the same sort of thing?


Obviously not. Unsold stock occurs when a product is not that good, not needed, or the market is saturated. People never get enough energy at a cheap or cheaper price.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')s the redistribution of consumption beneficial even if globally demand is not suppressed by some people using less? is there any advantage in that scenario over one where the consumption remains concentrated?


There could be, I guess, if the redistribution went to provide basic necessities to life, like clean water. But in the current case, it seems that 2 billion Chindians bent on becoming American comsumers would defintiely not be beneficial to the overall picture.
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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 01 Apr 2006, 15:29:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MyOtherID', ' ')But I sincerely believe people will take it incredibly seriously, just as we are, and change, using co-operation and conservation for the general good of all. That capability is what distinguishes us from other animals.


No, that is not what distinguishes us from other animals. It is natural for a species to compete to the full extent of their capabilities, but you may not hunt down your competitors or destroy their food or deny them access to food. In other words, you may compete but you may not wage war.

This describes the limit of competition in the natural world. We are destroying the ecosystem because we are at war with it, having exempted ourselves from this limited competition that all other species, save man, exhibit.
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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby mididoctors » Sun 02 Apr 2006, 11:04:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
Obviously not. Unsold stock occurs when a product is not that good, not needed, or the market is saturated. People never get enough energy at a cheap or cheaper price.


even locally?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here could be, I guess, if the redistribution went to provide basic necessities to life, like clean water. But in the current case, it seems that 2 billion Chindians bent on becoming American comsumers would defintiely not be beneficial to the overall picture.


is the reduction of geopolitical tensions a possible by product of redistribution?

these 2 billion are easier to placate in a redistributative scenario?

a wider understanding on global agreements to cut down would be helped to some degree by a modicum of leadership by example?

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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 02 Apr 2006, 11:56:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mididoctors', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
Obviously not. Unsold stock occurs when a product is not that good, not needed, or the market is saturated. People never get enough energy at a cheap or cheaper price.


even locally?


History says no, but let's say some do. Then what is to prevent others elsewhere from just consuming the energy they free up?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')s the reduction of geopolitical tensions a possible by product of redistribution?

these 2 billion are easier to placate in a redistributative scenario?

a wider understanding on global agreements to cut down would be helped to some degree by a modicum of leadership by example?



Would the sharing of the haves to the haves not be received well? Of course. But what are the chances that the American way of life ( based upon taking more than our share and setting it up as a standard of living) would be forgone in order to raise the living standards of China and India and other impoverished nations to a basic humane level?

We can't come to global agreements in the face of plenty. What makes you think that in the face of scarcity that suddenly that will change?

Scarcity breeds poverty, and poverty breeds conflict.
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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby mididoctors » Sun 02 Apr 2006, 14:51:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')We can't come to global agreements in the face of plenty. What makes you think that in the face of scarcity that suddenly that will change?
Scarcity breeds poverty, and poverty breeds conflict.


on a national level the UK hung together with a 3 day week in the 70's and rationing has worked well before.. these measures were triggered by shortage

the fact that agreements can not be found with abundance is perhaps a mischaracterization as a unequal distribution essentially points to a shortage from the get go...

the difference here is the notion of national identity and juristriction?

if you can produce examples of subset rationing then the answer is to lok at reasons why multi set action is not possible?

do rates and trends (economics) operate on 100% all or nothing triggers?


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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby MyOtherID » Sun 02 Apr 2006, 15:26:25

This is obviously a very important and controversial subject, and one with no comparable precedent, which makes all predictions completely speculative. And therein lies the weakness of the pessimists' arguments, for it is entirely probable that, faced with a terrible crisis, mankind could, for the first time, work in concert.
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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby mididoctors » Mon 03 Apr 2006, 11:06:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MyOtherID', 'T')his is obviously a very important and controversial subject, and one with no comparable precedent, which makes all predictions completely speculative. And therein lies the weakness of the pessimists' arguments, for it is entirely probable that, faced with a terrible crisis, mankind could, for the first time, work in concert.


despite being the devils advocate here I must confess am not too confident.

partly because the nature of the shortage is asymmetrical and misunderstood..

I think we all agree conservation is still only part of a adaptation process not a end goal


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Re: Are you powering down?

Unread postby coyote » Tue 04 Apr 2006, 02:54:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MyOtherID', 'T')his is obviously a very important and controversial subject, and one with no comparable precedent, which makes all predictions completely speculative. And therein lies the weakness of the pessimists' arguments, for it is entirely probable that, faced with a terrible crisis, mankind could, for the first time, work in concert.

I agree it is possible, and that's actually my great hope -- but I think we're on different timelines. If the cooperation does happen, I don't think it'll be till after we've already gone most of the way down the other side of the Peak, when there's not as big a prize left -- so that we'll be subjected to all the terrible effects of Peak Oil in the meantime. Hence my pessimism.

Or, I should say, my cynicism. I'm actually very optimistic by temperament. :)
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