[FairMaiden]

Hmm...seems as tho the US is selling off its assets! Ports, roads, etc...are going to the highest bidder. Seems very strange to me. Or is just me?

[The_Virginian]

Many Successful Indians are under the impression that if china Could Do it, India can as well...

I was watching Msnbc Asia, and an Indian construction Mughol actualy put his job in perspective "when you are in the construction business, you are in the business of creating assets..."

So in EVERY country, there are opposing forces...

Those who want to continue to create wealth/assets from existing energy/recources...

And those who wish to conserve. (make less money)


My "money" is on those who grow economies vs. those who would restrict them. It may be foolhardy in the end...but meantime they will win their "Pyrrhic economy."

[duke3522]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ab0di', 'F')or an insane road building plan check out this.
Your tax dollars at work.


"The NAFTA corridors system currently under construction will irreversibly divide the U.S. geographically, economically, and socially for the sake of profit. The cumulative consequences of this "biggest engineering and construction project in the history of the U.S." promise to be more damaging than any natural disaster in modern times.

"The largest of these massive transportation corridors, designed primarily to accommodate NAFTA traffic from Mexico across the U.S., will be 1,200 feet wide and consume 146 acres (almost 1/4 of a square mile) per mile. Because the corridors will contain high-speed passenger and freight rails and underground water, gas, and petroleum pipelines, as well as multiple high-speed truck and passenger vehicle lanes, they will be constructed at grade level and permanently divide the areas through which they pass. To make matters worse, the extensive grading and construction of barriers to protect the high-speed traffic will alter air currents and watersheds and prevent the movement of wildlife.

"The two priority NAFTA corridors under construction, I-35 and I-69, will divide the nation in half from south to north. The I-35 corridor, beginning at the international border at Laredo, will split the states of Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Iowa in half, and lop off the southeast corner and the eastern edge of Minnesota. The I-69 corridor will sever the Gulf Coast from the state of Texas and cut diagonally across Arkansas. It will then slice off the western margins of Tennessee and Kentucky before bisecting Indiana and cutting a big chunk out of southeastern Michigan."

[Grimnir]

They're not selling the Indiana tollway; they're leasing it.

[mgibbons19]

On the plus side, it will be nice to be able to drive to Indy.

I do wonder however. These are 99 year leases. I think a decent road will still be an asset post peak. However, who knows what the world will look like 100 years from now. I could imagine foreign renters of that road charging ever higher tolls on declining traffic to make their rents. We could be in a situation where 75 years from now, the tolls will be too high for the dukes and mikes of indiana to actually use the roads we at least theoretically own.

It will be interesting.

[ubercynicmeister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')he only road that will be sold off post-peak is the one in front of you house. The asphalt will be removed to open up land for gardens,

[NeoPeasant]

What is going to happen to all these private toll roads when the operators find themselves unable to attract enough toll paying vehicles to service their debt, much less fund necessary operation and maintenance expenses?

The states will be left with albatross roads and responsibility for the debt when the operators go bankrupt, that's what.

[ubercynicmeister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NeoPeasant', 'W')hat is going to happen to all these private toll roads when the operators find themselves unable to attract enough toll paying vehicles to service their debt, much less fund necessary operation and maintenance expenses?

The states will be left with albatross roads and responsibility for the debt when the operators go bankrupt, that's what.

[oilfreeandhappy]

On a Local level, usually roads are funded by property taxes. Often states take money from the General Fund (Sales Tax revenue) for road maintenance. My state has a relatively high gas tax, and still the legislature voted to appropriate, over a 5-year period, $840 Million from the General Fund for road repair. To me, nationwide and over the period of many years, this seems like a huge subsidy for the Auto/Oil infrastructure.

Instead of using these funds, I believe that these roads should either be covered by taxes on automobile licensing or local gas taxes. I can't think of another industry in the US that receives these kinds of subsidies.

If these costs were factored into auto licensing and/or gas taxes, I think we'd see a lot more one-car families, people using Park and Rides, carpooling, Mass Transit, and bicycling.

[LadyRuby]

I think this local funding varies a lot state to state. I thought most states relied primarily on gas taxes and vehicle registration fees to fund transportation (road) improvments (not transit, often gas taxes can't be used to fund transit).

Here's one report that compares a couple of states:

Transportation Finance Issues - states

[oilfreeandhappy]

I was unable to open your link. I'll try tonight from a different computer. But I did get a few responses from a similar thread from some transportation coordinators in a couple states. I stand by my original statement:

Georgia:
"The road lobby, suburban home builders, etc are absolutely against it. They know that if the public knew the true costs of roads, they wouldn't be as popular. Here in Georgia 100% of the gas tax goes to road building and maintenance, and it is illegal for city or county governments to tax gas so all local road building has to come from either from local non-gas taxes or by state/federal grants (which of course come with strings attached). Also the gas tax money can't be used for related costs such as trash pick up next to the road or law enforcement. Even with that dedicated stream of revenue, the public is always crying to have the gax tax and the tag tax removed while the bulk of road money here ends up coming from the general fund because the gax tax doesn't come close to covering costs. For politicians, using general fund money is great because it obscures the costs. Most of the public thinks their taxes are high and that it is because of crack whores and welfare queens. They have no idea of how much money really goes where. Making taxes more alligned into user fees would make the public better informed.

Yes, it would hurt poor people but even they should have a full accounting of the government services they receive. How many times have you heard someone getting social benefits complain about they are not getting enough? Happens all the time. If they saw all the different places where their lives are subsidized by having them come in the form of fuel (and other) vouchers instead of a hidden cost somewhere else, maybe they wouldn't be so ungrateful (then again, maybe they would).

In general, since we like to pretend we living in a free market capitalistic society, the population needs to know the true costs in order to make informed decisions that allow the free market to work. But business doesn't like that. They like having protected markets and the ability to externalize as many costs as possible, especially when they can externalize them to the government.

In a true free market economy, many (but certainly not all) of today's largest businesses wouldn't stand a chance and many CEOs would be asking "Would you like fries with that" since they are better at manipulating government than they are at running a competitive business."

Michigan:

In Michigan the State gas tax and vehicle registration fees are split between the state with about 35 percent of the revenues, the country road commissions, which also get 35 percent, and cities and villages that get 30 percent. The amount for each individual agency gets is based upon miles of major or local roads, and cities and villages also have a population factor (cities and villages over 50,000 must kick in $$ to MDOT for major projects in their MCD).

This is after approximately 10 percent is set aside for transit, and 5 percent is set aside for both economic development and bridge projects.

Counties cities and villages are able to collect property taxes, but not sales or gas taxes to augment their roads. This partially explains why some communities have remarkably better roads than others.

[Backtosteam]

This is one of my favorite topics! People are clueless when it comes to the cost of maintaining roads. They think the gas tax pays for it all when it only covers 60-75% (this also includes drivers fees etc...so if you take them away it's even less) depending on the road type and area of the country. We pump 30-50 billion per year from income taxes into our road system and then bitch about spending 1 billion on Amtrak. The tabel you want to start with is HF10. Search Google for that table which lists most spending on roads. If you add the income tax subsidies for roads over the last 75 years it's in the trillions. And the sad thing is that it takes the same time or longer to travel by ground today as it did 50 years ago. We've made little or no progress. Very sad and stupid. No one will ever go for putting the true $3 dollar per gallon tax on gas that is needed to cover the costs. We'd rather pretend it's cheap to run the system.

[oilfreeandhappy]

The other interesting facet of this, is that most "car people" think we need to support the auto/oil infrastructure for whatever future transit the US employs. They really think the personal auto is a "given". If one factors in all the energy to support the auto infrastructure, it's mind boggling. I say that, because I tried to find data on steel usage for autos, roads, bridges, barriers, etc, and the associated BTUs expended. I was able to find next to nothing in the US. Great Britain had a few studies.

[EarthGamePlayer]

I just started reading about this, but it seems insane:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')i]Quietly but systematically, the Bush Administration is advancing the plan to build a huge NAFTA Super Highway, four football-fields-wide, through the heart of the U.S. along Interstate 35, from the Mexican border at Laredo, Tex., to the Canadian border north of Duluth, Minn.

[Novus]

Thankfully the US will be bankrupt before this thing gets built or even started. In 20 years the interstate will cruble to dust and very few people will even have working cars.

[grabby]

WHEN THEY BURN THE LAST OF THE OIL, THESE WILL MAKE GREAT TENNIS COURTS.

[emersonbiggins]

Ladies and gentlemen, in a situation analogous to how the conception of the Interstate Highway System became so far removed from its actual intent, the cries of farmers and townspeople have rallied around this bill for the TTC:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ep. Lois Kolkhorst (R-Brehnam) and Rep. Dennis Bonnen (R-Angleton) have filed HB1273, which addresses some frequent criticisms of the Trans Texas Corridor package passed last session.

The bill limits the proposed Trans Texas Corridor to 800 feet from 1200 feet, eliminates the franchising of businesses along the corridor by road contractors and requires access on, off, and across every state highway and local FM road. The bill also eliminates the "non-competition" clause in the TTC, which currently allows the TTC operators the ability to stop other public road projects in an area if they felt it would lower profitability of their investment. Lastly, the bill requires that any toll fee increase or collection fee increase must meet approval of the Transportation Commission and not be left to the private company exclusively. The intent is to allow for more transparency, accountability and less of a footprint on the land. Also to ensure that rural areas can access the TTC.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he intent is to allow for more transparency, accountability and less of a footprint on the land. Also to ensure that rural areas can access the TTC.

[vision-master]

Nice road to transport a shit-load of military personel.