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David Irving

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 13:34:03

I've never read any of is books and it is interesting that he about-faced after reading Eichmann's papers.

Irving case prompts Austria law debate

Does any country really have "free speech"?
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Chuck » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 14:00:56

So if you challenge common wisdom (the wisdom of this age that is) than they throw you in jail? O wait, only if you challenge certain common wisdom.
Ever heard of someone convicted for disputing evolutionary science?
The whole thing stimulated me to do my own research on my long held convictions about the holocaust. Better not tell what I found.
WTF ! And all this in Austria for G-sake!
You know what, I already feel guilty for writing this down.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Free » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 14:16:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Chuck', 'W')TF ! And all this in Austria for G-sake!


Yeah so you better don't fu** with us! :-D And be careful if you visit, you might end up in the hands of our Gestapo-like anti-Nazi-police...

Oh the irony of it! First we send out Hitler to destroy the world, and then we forbid to talk about it...

But to be fair, this law has its justification in Austria, you would understand if you knew how many Nazis are still around here. Still, I agree, it's very ambivalent, and I am against suffocating free speech.

Very hypocritical to criticize the muslims about their cartoon-outrage and then throw a man in jail for writing books...
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby shakespear1 » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 14:34:20

Interesting debate. Here is something about Mr. Irving work

Debate

Does Freedom of Speech exist in Austria? 8) 8)
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby entropyfails » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 15:48:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')But to be fair, this law has its justification in Austria, you would understand if you knew how many Nazis are still around here. Still, I agree, it's very ambivalent, and I am against suffocating free speech.


If you think that this law has any justification at all, then I very much doubt you believe in free speech. We have lots of racist assholes in the US too. But they have a fundamental right to express their wrongheaded opinions. Those in Austria, or any other country, have the same rights, even if the government chooses to deny them their rights.

Now the obligatory Noam Chompsky quote...
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 16:18:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'I')'ve never read any of is books and it is interesting that he about-faced after reading Eichmann's papers.


The "about face" was a plea bargin. He was supposed to get probation with time served if he Confessed to crime-think. The prosecutors didn't keep up their end of the bargain.

Irving is one of THE most well-respected WWII historians. My local public library has several of his books. They are well-written, super well-documented, and very readable.

Irving was the type of old crumudgeon who scared other historians because he would travel to the most remote backwater archives to dig out an original document and verify if how they referenced it was true.

But hey, if the government requires you to believe a thing or go to prison, well, it must be true. Right?
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Free » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 16:50:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', '
')If you think that this law has any justification at all, then I very much doubt you believe in free speech. We have lots of racist assholes in the US too. But they have a fundamental right to express their wrongheaded opinions. Those in Austria, or any other country, have the same rights, even if the government chooses to deny them their rights.


But imagine if the racist assholes in the USA would have murdered millions and started a world war - do you honestly think there would not be some kind of law against a resurrection of this political movement?

Yes Austrians and Germans should have the same rights, but they also should have a special historical obligation (no guilt - that's something entirely different).
And in such a very specific occasion the obligation trumps the right. Freedom of speech stops where it endangers the life and health of others.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby entropyfails » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 17:07:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'B')ut imagine if the racist assholes in the USA would have murdered millions and started a world war - do you honestly think there would not be some kind of law against a resurrection of this political movement?


Last I checked, my Grandfather fought along side yours (or against depending on where you are from) to stop that death culture from spreading and eating the world. So, while my country stayed relatively intact due to the aggressions of the hate spewing rhinoceroses, I find it hard to believe that we have some sort of vastly different historical background when it comes to hate.

In the US, we have had LOTS of laws against certain political movements and types of speech. Up to this point thankfully, our First Amendment has protected us from these sorts of insidious and vicious laws. To me, they carry the same viciousness as the hate spewers, namely that the “opponents” are somehow subhuman and thus must be deprived of rights.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')Yes Austrians and Germans should have the same rights, but they also should have a special historical obligation (no guilt - that's something entirely different).
And in such a very specific occasion the obligation trumps the right. Freedom of speech stops where it endangers the life and health of others.


I disagree. If you allow any “historic obligation” to trump a natural right, then all rights become suspect as the march of time introduces more “historical obligations.” And while that may have some allusions of a slippery slope argument to it, I feel the induction has merit due to the ways governments in the past have eroded civil liberties and fundamental human rights. Do you feel that these sorts of “historical revisionist” scholars incite people to commit unlawful acts? If not, what reason could you have for banning their speech?
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Free » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 17:22:37

Ok I give up. It's difficult trying to be the "good German/Austrian" :-D

But seriously, I highly value free speech, and basically agree with you, and that's why I have head-aches about the Irving-thing.

However, when it has such grave implications that transgress the realm of speech into bloody reality, I think legal boundaries of some kinds are necessary.

And it's not like this "historical obligation" is carved in stone. I guess, I hope, at some point it won't be necessary anymore to have such laws. As the above linked articel says, the legal debate in Austria is going on, especially about the severity of the punishment.

I remember a case recently were two stupid ignorant young recruits did the Hitler-salute in the military base (more prank-like), were reported and went to court.
They as well faced the possibility of doing up to 10 years in prison for this (they weren't convicted in the end). This is definitely too much. There should be sanctions, but measured.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 17:27:33

10 years? That does seem a bit excessive. Couldn't they just give a little slap on the wrist to these cretins? You know, pay a fine, pick up trash, clean the toilets at the holocaust museums.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Free » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 17:33:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '1')0 years? That does seem a bit excessive. Couldn't they just give a little slap on the wrist to these cretins? You know, pay a fine, pick up trash, clean the toilets at the holocaust museums.


Yes that's what I was thinking about. I guess they were disciplinary punished in the military anyway, but I don't know for sure.

On the other hand it could be of course that they got a medal and had a beer with the commander... :)

You see, that's why we need such laws in Austria, QED...
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby eastbay » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 17:43:27

Possibly the noblest of all human endeavors is the insatiable drive to Examine Everything. Many religions require it. Most, maybe all, universities teach this. Unfortunately history reveals that oftentimes those who examine things bit too closely end up jailed or hung.

One of my degrees is a BA in history. I too have quite a few of David Irvings works among the hundreds of history books in my home library (... getting dusty sitting among other books I used to hide including the collected works of Karl Marx and Lenin). His books have sold quite well. My favorite is The Destruction of Convoy PQ 13 which he wrote in the mid 60's when he was 27 years old. It detailed the fate of a WWI convoy sacrificed by the British in the Baltic Sea. The British government tried for years to stop him from publishing it. Up until quite recently his works on WWII have been required reading in the US military acadamies.

He isn't exactly a revisionist historian. He's a historian who has at times Examined Everything including questioning the scope and breadth of various official accounts of every war his country has waged during his lifetime. I think most of us here at this site can appreciate that. I don't believe a word from my government abiout the Iraq war. Many question official accounts. Irving has made a career of it.

That's why he's in jail. Socrates would understand.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby entropyfails » Tue 21 Feb 2006, 20:12:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'O')k I give up. It's difficult trying to be the "good German/Austrian" :-D


*laugh* I guess some things never change.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')But seriously, I highly value free speech, and basically agree with you, and that's why I have head-aches about the Irving-thing.


Then campaign for their removal as opposed to giving them a half-hearted defense. *grin*

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')However, when it has such grave implications that transgress the realm of speech into bloody reality, I think legal boundaries of some kinds are necessary.


I agree when real harm happens. But yelling fire in a crowded theater seems far different than disputing a historic account of WWII. I agree that this Irving guy went too far in his standards of truth. It seems like he wrote that the gas chambers never existed, which makes you wonder what he thinks the Nazi's did with all that Zyklon-B... But as you point out, this law also gets used to punish jokesters doing "mock hitler salutes" and other researchers who feel that the 6 million number may be overstated by a million or two. The law has nothing to do with the desired outcome of the speech but restricts the speech itself. That makes it a travesty of justice and an erosion of fundamental human rights.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'A')nd it's not like this "historical obligation" is carved in stone. I guess, I hope, at some point it won't be necessary anymore to have such laws. As the above linked articel says, the legal debate in Austria is going on, especially about the severity of the punishment.

If it isn’t “carved in stone” then it doesn’t make for a very good candidate for “historical obligation.” And the slippery slope does seem to hold in a historic sense when we talk about governments and their tendency to curb freedoms. I think the US model triumphs in this case. Specific threats, libel, and incitation to riot don’t count as free speech because we can prove it had the intent of causing immediate harm. Everything else falls under free speech.

Any other path will lead towards the loss of liberty.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby Free » Wed 22 Feb 2006, 02:30:40

Ok I give up again, this time unconditional surrender. It's not that we are not used to that. :-p

I am just thankful that Al Gore gave us the internets and hope that this makes it very difficult in the future for repressive governments to curb free speech...
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby TommyJefferson » Wed 22 Feb 2006, 07:53:19

David Irving allows people to download his books for free from his website...

http://www.fpp.co.uk

The Trail of the Fox was quite good. I have it in paperback.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby backstop » Wed 22 Feb 2006, 13:14:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')But to be fair, this law has its justification in Austria, you would understand if you knew how many Nazis are still around here. Still, I agree, it's very ambivalent, and I am against suffocating free speech.


If you think that this law has any justification at all, then I very much doubt you believe in free speech. We have lots of racist assholes in the US too. But they have a fundamental right to express their wrongheaded opinions. Those in Austria, or any other country, have the same rights, even if the government chooses to deny them their rights.

Now the obligatory Noam Chompsky quote...
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."


EF -

The problem with such absolutism is that it bears no relation to reality.

For instance, you could spend 10 years torturing a child with words - so do you have the Right to do so ?

And you could spend 6 years inciting a class of schoolchildren to murder some particular creed once they're teenagers - so do you have the Right to do so ?

And you could spend a year promoting the assassination of a democratically elected president - so do you have the Right to do so ?

By Chomsky's logic above, if you don't believe in the Right to do all of these things, you don't believe in free speech at all.

Which is plainly nonsense.

The Right to free speech is not absolute - it is balanced by the Duty of care for the listeners.

That it is claimed to be an absolute right by those foul creeds that thrive on its suppression, should surely give pause for more careful thought.


regards,

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Re: David Irving

Unread postby entropyfails » Wed 22 Feb 2006, 15:30:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', '
')EF -

The problem with such absolutism is that it bears no relation to reality.

I posted about the limits of speech above. Provable intent to cause harm, i.e. libel, threats, and incitation to riot, do not count as free speech. I fail to see my absolutism.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'F')or instance, you could spend 10 years torturing a child with words - so do you have the Right to do so ?

In court, you could prove the intent to cause harm from the threats. So you are obviously not expressing your fundamental rights.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'A')nd you could spend 6 years inciting a class of schoolchildren to murder some particular creed once they're teenagers - so do you have the Right to do so ?

Incitation to riot also doesn't count as free speech.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'A')nd you could spend a year promoting the assassination of a democratically elected president - so do you have the Right to do so ?

Again, incitation to riot, threats, and planning conspiracies do not count as free speech.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'B')y Chomsky's logic above, if you don't believe in the Right to do all of these things, you don't believe in free speech at all.
Come on, backstop. The idea of "freedom of expression" doesn't go as far as you want to paint it. Do you really think that Chomsky or myself push the term "freedom of expression" that far?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'W')hich is plainly nonsense.
Exactly. You have defeated your own straw man. *grin* Burn, straw man, burn! *laugh*
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'T')he Right to free speech is not absolute - it is balanced by the Duty of care for the listeners.

That it is claimed to be an absolute right by those foul creeds that thrive on its suppression, should surely give pause for more careful thought.
The right of expression has nothing to do with the listener, unless you lie about them or elicit criminal behavior from them. Other than obvious intent to harm, freedom of expression makes the foundation that all other freedoms have been based on.

Where does this notion of care for the listeners (beyond the obvious, aforementioned areas where you intend to cause harm) arise out of the idea of "freedom to express myself"?
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby entropyfails » Wed 22 Feb 2006, 15:36:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'O')k I give up again, this time unconditional surrender. It's not that we are not used to that. :-p

I am just thankful that Al Gore gave us the internets and hope that this makes it very difficult in the future for repressive governments to curb free speech...


*laugh* You're funny!

Though I would have went with "teh interwebz"... *giggle* As we've seen from that Chinese paper as of late, the Internet does perform in that function currently. Let us hope it continues to do so in the future.
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Re: David Irving

Unread postby backstop » Wed 22 Feb 2006, 18:04:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', '
')EF -

The problem with such absolutism is that it bears no relation to reality.

I posted about the limits of speech above. Provable intent to cause harm, i.e. libel, threats, and incitation to riot, do not count as free speech. I fail to see my absolutism.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'F')or instance, you could spend 10 years torturing a child with words - so do you have the Right to do so ?

In court, you could prove the intent to cause harm from the threats. So you are obviously not expressing your fundamental rights.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'A')nd you could spend 6 years inciting a class of schoolchildren to murder some particular creed once they're teenagers - so do you have the Right to do so ?

Incitation to riot also doesn't count as free speech.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'A')nd you could spend a year promoting the assassination of a democratically elected president - so do you have the Right to do so ?

Again, incitation to riot, threats, and planning conspiracies do not count as free speech.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'B')y Chomsky's logic above, if you don't believe in the Right to do all of these things, you don't believe in free speech at all.
Come on, backstop. The idea of "freedom of expression" doesn't go as far as you want to paint it. Do you really think that Chomsky or myself push the term "freedom of expression" that far?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'W')hich is plainly nonsense.
Exactly. You have defeated your own straw man. *grin* Burn, straw man, burn! *laugh*
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('backstop', 'T')he Right to free speech is not absolute - it is balanced by the Duty of care for the listeners.

That it is claimed to be an absolute right by those foul creeds that thrive on its suppression, should surely give pause for more careful thought.
The right of expression has nothing to do with the listener, unless you lie about them or elicit criminal behavior from them. Other than obvious intent to harm, freedom of expression makes the foundation that all other freedoms have been based on.

Where does this notion of care for the listeners (beyond the obvious, aforementioned areas where you intend to cause harm) arise out of the idea of "freedom to express myself"?


EF -

Perhaps I should have made clearer that I was responding to Chomsky's absolutist statetment - and was not attacking either you or your post.

While the three cases I posted might attract attempts at prosecutions in some states,
no threats are needed to verbally torture a child, just vicious and quite legal verbal abuse -

similarly a class of schoolchildren given a daily dose of hatred for some creed may never even once have been told to riot -

similarly the neo-christian Pat Buchanan has yet even to be cautioned by police for remarking on the adviseability of the murder of President Chavez -

The fact that we pass laws to constrain the freedom of speech that causes harm to people surely rather affirms the point that we do not, and clearly should not, consider freedom of speech as an absolute right ?

I suggest itt is always, whether legally or morally, balanced by a duty of care for the listeners -

regards,

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