[The_Virginian]

Backstop wrote:

"However, retro-fitting nuclear-tipped rockets into a diesel sub sounds pretty far fetched -
the sheer scale of the launch tubes would I think be untenable.


Except these were NEW German made Subs of the "dolphin" class:

SSK DOLPIN CLASS

16 Harpoon Missiles = 16 Nuclear shots?

[peaker_2005]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Virginian', 'B')ackstop wrote:

"However, retro-fitting nuclear-tipped rockets into a diesel sub sounds pretty far fetched -
the sheer scale of the launch tubes would I think be untenable.


Except these were NEW German made Subs of the "dolphin" class:

SSK DOLPIN CLASS

16 Harpoon Missiles = 16 Nuclear shots?

[Luckystars]

edit

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Luckystars', 'H')amas is the outer limits...No corporate sponors. This is what a true democracy looks like, it represents the people and their collective interests. Don't fear, they will sell out to Mecca Cola and ..POOF there goes your revolution......
next

[smiffy]

Israel is so fucked post peak.
when there's no petrol for tanks helicopter gunships and fighter planes, it will come down to my bullet vs you bullet and there will be a lot of young Palestinians that will want to reclaim there grandfathers house that some Israeli is now living in.

Then theres the dimona reactor and all those nukes, water shortages, lower food production, every year the keneret's (sea of galilee) water table slips to dangerous levels. Massive population density.

A genuine hate and distrust of Arabs by Jews.

There in real trouble over there, and like a previous poster wrote, do they realize it?

Israel in the next decade will become a major concern for the world and world stability.


It's simple quiet frightning as to what may possibly happen there.



smiffy

[Leanan]

I don't think even Hamas expected to win this big. Their strategy was to win a substantial minority. That way, Fatah could take the heat for anything that didn't get done, and Hamas wouldn't be on the spot as far as their policy toward Israel went. The best of both worlds, if you will. They would have some say in what was going on, but not much responsibility.

They are clearly as surprised as anyone to find themselves in charge. And, I suspect, not as happy as you'd expect the winners to be. I just hope they grow into the role.

But in the long run...yeah, I think Israel is really, really screwed.

[Leanan]

Fascinating article in Newsweek:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11026631/site/newsweek/

It argues that the Bush administration just doesn't understand the role of religion in Arab life. (Ironic, given Dubya's own propensity for mixing church and state.) If they did, our adventures in the Middle East might be a lot less costly. And we might find that dealing with Islamicists isn't as bad as we fear.

[erl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bbadwolf', '
')The Arabs have been abused and mistreated by Israel for too many decades and soon the time will be right for them to strike back. Without US aid, they're toast. And the next holocost will be MUCH uglier than the last one.

[Leanan]

OTOH...a lot of Russian Jews are going back to Russia. Because the economy in Israel has suffered so much from the violence.

Probably a good move. Russia at least will have petroleum for quite some time.

If there is a nuclear war, I have no doubt it will start in the Middle East. I fully believe that Israel would nuke their enemies if they were losing. I also believe their enemies would do the same. Which may include China, if Israel attacks Saudi Arabia or Iran. China has already offered Saudi Arabia nuclear weapons in exchange for gas contracts.

If it comes down to nuclear war, it probably doesn't matter if you're living in Tel Aviv or Tokyo. You're screwed.

But that's not the biggest worry for Israel, IMO. The biggest worry is that they are as unsustainable as Phoenix, Arizona. They will not be able to support their current population without oil.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('erl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bbadwolf', '
')The Arabs have been abused and mistreated by Israel for too many decades and soon the time will be right for them to strike back. Without US aid, they're toast. And the next holocost will be MUCH uglier than the last one.

[Z]

Maybe Israel, the US and other developped countries will at least face the realities of the situation. Throwing stones at a dog doesn't make the dog nice, and the 'an eye for an eye' motto leaves everyone blind.

We'll see if the 'democratic' countries actually believe in democracy. By now they must have understood that the outcome of democratic elections in the ME will result in islamic governments ( see Iraq, Palestine, Iran and local elections in Saudi Arabia ). Quite a dilemna!

[The_Virginian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('erl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bbadwolf', '
')The Arabs have been abused and mistreated by Israel for too many decades and soon the time will be right for them to strike back. Without US aid, they're toast. And the next holocost will be MUCH uglier than the last one.

[Eli]

Well I have been reading stuff that leads me to believe Hamas is going to switch tactics for awhile.

I think they are actually going to make peace with Israel. They keep asking Abbas to join the government and there are some proposals that he could continue negotiating peace with Israel.

The peace that Hamas would agree to would be what is known as a hudna or temporary truce.

This would keep the international money flowing into Hamas' pocket instead of the PA's and would allow them to grow in strength and get better organized. They would be free to make all kinds of flowery statements in this peace treaty that would sound great to the west, but all the while their goal would never change which is the destruction of Israel.

Actually continuing the struggle now with Israel would undermine their long term goal of destroying the Zionists. Israel can handle Hamas now but a bigger stronger more well equipped Hamas 5 to 10 years in the future would be another thing. And Hamas actually has the power to stop the conflict where as Fatah never did.

By changing course the international money would flow into Palestine and would allow Hamas to get their forces ready for the big push.

[mekrob]

Would they really nuke Palestinians though? Isn't the land that Palestine occupies actually holier than the current land of Israel? What about Jerusalem? Nuke that just to spite the Arab-Muslims? Also don't forget radiation.

[thor]

An interesting comment on Hamas rule from Robert Spencer of Jihadwatch:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Jasser Jasser, a Christian pharmacist in Ramallah, said of the prospect of Hamas rule: “We’re all afraid. We’re worried about the future, that we’ll become a second Iran.” Jasser and other non-Muslims have every reason to be afraid. Hassam El-Masalmeh, Hamas leader in Bethlehem, recently declared that his movement intended to reinstitute the traditional tax, the jizya, stipulated in the Qur’an for Jews and Christians in an Islamic state. “We in Hamas,” Masalmeh announced, “intend to implement this tax someday. We say it openly – we welcome everyone to Palestine but only if they agree to live under our rules.” Since along with this tax, Islamic law stipulates that Jews and Christians must submit to a series of humiliating and discriminatory regulations, ensuring their second-class status in line with the Qur’anic stipulation that they “pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued” (9:29).

[Leanan]

Great. Palestine will discriminate against non-Muslims. Israel discriminates against non-Jews. Now all we need is a Christian state, that can discriminate against non-Christians.

Or they could just move here.

[cs1992]

As for any country being able to fend for itself, I'd have to put my money on the Israelis. I am sure, that once the air clears, Israel will come out of this an even stronger nation. The resolve and determination of the Israelis is just as passionate as any Muslim's.

I said it before and I will say it again: This may have been a victory for Hamas, but it is a setback for the Palestinians.

[Leanan]

I think this is all small potatoes compared to peak oil. Once the energy crisis really starts to bite, it won't matter. Hamas vs. Fatah, Likud vs. Kadima, Democratic vs. Republican...no one will care.

[Eddie_lomax]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', 'T')his is what will happen, and soon, Israel (or perhaps the U.S.) will bomb Iran, destroying there nuclear sites. The U.S. definately has the means, and Israel probably has the means, what with the U.S.'s help and there satellites and intelligence gathering operations. Iran, the Palestinians, and all there allies will make a big fuss, perhaps killing jews abroad and in Israel, blowing up busses, trains, etc in minor terror attacks....that'll be all. What else can they do. Iran can launch outdated soviet-stlye missiles at Israel, which Israel has the capability of possibly shooting down, and than Israel could nuke Iran, killing tens of millions. Iran could launch chemical attacks, but Israelis are prepared for this, every Israeli owns a gas mask and is ready to use it. The counterattack by Israel would, again, kill millions. There is a reason Israel is still around, they have the big guns. If Iran or any other arabs could wipe Israel off the map, they would. But not without killing themselves also. Israel has last strike capability, with nuclear attack sumbarines. With hundreds of nukes, Israel could destroy more than just the middle east. So no, I don't expect WWIII from this, not when Israel is fighting against people who think strapping bombs on there bodies will win them a war. Arabs or anyone else, however determined, cannot fight overwhelming technological might with rocks, bomb belts, or words.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cs1992', 'A')s for any country being able to fend for itself, I'd have to put my money on the Israelis. I am sure, that once the air clears, Israel will come out of this an even stronger nation. The resolve and determination of the Israelis is just as passionate as any Muslim's.

I said it before and I will say it again: This may have been a victory for Hamas, but it is a setback for the Palestinians.