PeakOil is You
THE Laws of Thermodynamics Thread (merged)
Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by trendal » Thu 05 Jan 2006, 18:42:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('basil_hayden', 'C')an there still be growth with less energy? I believe so, maximizing efficiency.
Of course there can be, and this is exactly what Life does - maximize efficiency.
Not in any one single organism, but in the whole of the biosphere. If there is energy to be used, no matter how little there is, Life will have found a way to use that energy. Even energy that is merely "waste" to one organism can and is still used by another organism for an energy source. I can take a shit in the forest and while that shit is essentially useless to me as a living organism...you can be damn sure that a whole multitude of other organisms will jump on my waste and use it as the energy source it still is.
Left to itself, I think, Life would evolve to use up EVERY available source of energy in any given system.
"Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."
-- Thomas Jefferson
-- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by EnergySpin » Thu 05 Jan 2006, 18:49:45
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('killJOY', 'I') was perusing this list of scientists discussing their favorite "dangerous ideas," depressed that not one of them mentions oil peak, when I came across this:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SCOTT SAMPSON', '
')The dangerous idea is this: the purpose of life is to disperse energy.
Many of us are at least somewhat familiar with the second law of thermodynamics, the unwavering propensity of energy to disperse and, in doing so, transition from high quality to low quality forms. More generally, as stated by ecologist Eric Schneider, "nature abhors a gradient," where a gradient is simply a difference over a distance — for example, in temperature or pressure. Open physical systems — including those of the atmosphere, hydrosphere, and geosphere — all embody this law, being driven by the dispersal of energy, particularly the flow of heat, continually attempting to achieve equilibrium.
[snip]
Virtually all organisms, including humans, are, in a real sense, sunlight transmogrified, temporary waypoints in the flow of energy. Ecological succession, viewed from a thermodynamic perspective, is a process that maximizes the capture and degradation of energy.
[snip]
Ecology has been summarized by the pithy statement, "energy flows, matter cycles. " Yet this maxim applies equally to complex systems in the non-living world; indeed it literally unites the biosphere with the physical realm. More and more, it appears that complex, cycling, swirling systems of matter have a natural tendency to emerge in the face of energy gradients. This recurrent phenomenon may even have been the driving force behind life's origins.
[snip]
The concept of life as energy flow, once fully digested, is profound. Just as Darwin fundamentally connected humans to the non-human world, a thermodynamic perspective connects life inextricably to the non-living world. This dangerous idea, once broadly distributed and understood, is likely to provoke reaction from many sectors, including religion and science. The wondrous diversity and complexity of life through time, far from being the product of intelligent design, is a natural phenomenon intimately linked to the physical realm of energy flow.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SCOTT SAMPSON', '
')The dangerous idea is this: the purpose of life is to disperse energy.
Many of us are at least somewhat familiar with the second law of thermodynamics, the unwavering propensity of energy to disperse and, in doing so, transition from high quality to low quality forms. More generally, as stated by ecologist Eric Schneider, "nature abhors a gradient," where a gradient is simply a difference over a distance — for example, in temperature or pressure. Open physical systems — including those of the atmosphere, hydrosphere, and geosphere — all embody this law, being driven by the dispersal of energy, particularly the flow of heat, continually attempting to achieve equilibrium.
[snip]
Virtually all organisms, including humans, are, in a real sense, sunlight transmogrified, temporary waypoints in the flow of energy. Ecological succession, viewed from a thermodynamic perspective, is a process that maximizes the capture and degradation of energy.
[snip]
Ecology has been summarized by the pithy statement, "energy flows, matter cycles. " Yet this maxim applies equally to complex systems in the non-living world; indeed it literally unites the biosphere with the physical realm. More and more, it appears that complex, cycling, swirling systems of matter have a natural tendency to emerge in the face of energy gradients. This recurrent phenomenon may even have been the driving force behind life's origins.
[snip]
The concept of life as energy flow, once fully digested, is profound. Just as Darwin fundamentally connected humans to the non-human world, a thermodynamic perspective connects life inextricably to the non-living world. This dangerous idea, once broadly distributed and understood, is likely to provoke reaction from many sectors, including religion and science. The wondrous diversity and complexity of life through time, far from being the product of intelligent design, is a natural phenomenon intimately linked to the physical realm of energy flow.
Read the whole thing.
So it would seem our tendency to chew our way through energy reserves is natural behaviour, the way things should be. And then we die.
Well this has been suspected/known for a while. There are naturally occuring crystals whose thermodynamic behaviour matches that of living system (and they can even self-replicate!). In fact one of the origin-of-life-from-the-inorganic/premordial-soup proposed that the first life forms originated from the concerted action of such crystals->RNA molecules (RNA world)--> mumbo/jambo --> Life.
And with the exception of the fundies and reductionist-haters this is not really a dangerous idea (i.e. thermodynamic commonalities between living and non-living systems). BUT the statement The dangerous idea is this: the purpose of life is to disperse energy. is just stupid. In a system with 10^80+ atoms (that's our universe), one cannot possibly speak about purpose. In essence the author is making the preposterous claim that a certain pretty nasty looking integral (one concerning the distribution of velocities of the 10^80+ atoms) has been evolving according to a plan (purpose) for the last 13 billion years (age of the universe).
Thanks for posting the list KJ ...
PS : What I do find "dangerous" ideas is the re-emergence of genetic determinism in neuroscience and human genetics. It started with Pinker's "Blank Slate" and it keeps going. When are these guys gonna learn that epigenetic factors are as important as genetic ones? At least they seem to be in the second "IT" organ system in our bodies (the immune one).
"Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by actionreplay » Thu 05 Jan 2006, 19:58:39
Well, sometimes when I need to go to the loo I tell my husband, "Sorry love, just need to go increase the amount of entrpoy in the universe" 
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by merecat » Thu 05 Jan 2006, 23:26:25
As far as i see it, the purpose of life is to survive and evolve, the survival part does not necessarily require energy, some spores and seeds can survive many thousands of years without using energy, panspermia can supposedly keep genetic information intact indefinitely, even in the vacuum of space.
It would be detrimental to life for it to evolve as a more voracious energy consumer. Life tends to be as energy efficient as it can be because the wasteful mutations are outperformed by the more energy efficient variety, and come harder times of famine, the energy efficient mutations outperform and outlive the less efficient ones.
It is not in our (humans) genes to consume so much, rather it is in our memes, and unfortunately >90% of memes today are not the golden nuggets of information they once were, in times gone by the memes in our craniums helped us to survive, to forage, to hunt, to mate, to play, to better see us and our children through life, but the memes of today are illogical decadent destructive junk spread by capitalism.
We are encouraged to consume because it is good for economic growth, these ideas of consumption and endless resources are very seductive and that is how they spread like fire through our minds. To quench these fires is nigh on impossible and this accounts for the hard headedness that you will encounter when trying to convince a cornucopian that peak oil is a big problem.
It would be detrimental to life for it to evolve as a more voracious energy consumer. Life tends to be as energy efficient as it can be because the wasteful mutations are outperformed by the more energy efficient variety, and come harder times of famine, the energy efficient mutations outperform and outlive the less efficient ones.
It is not in our (humans) genes to consume so much, rather it is in our memes, and unfortunately >90% of memes today are not the golden nuggets of information they once were, in times gone by the memes in our craniums helped us to survive, to forage, to hunt, to mate, to play, to better see us and our children through life, but the memes of today are illogical decadent destructive junk spread by capitalism.
We are encouraged to consume because it is good for economic growth, these ideas of consumption and endless resources are very seductive and that is how they spread like fire through our minds. To quench these fires is nigh on impossible and this accounts for the hard headedness that you will encounter when trying to convince a cornucopian that peak oil is a big problem.
The Hopis mark the end of the 4th world as a purge by fire. Special markers include building of 'spider webs in the sky' through which 'people will walk'.
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by rockdoc123 » Fri 06 Jan 2006, 00:20:57
well it has been awhile since I fiddled with basic physics but as I remember the laws of thermodynamics actually say everything tends to move to a state of low free energy. This gentleman more or less says this but in such a way that almost everyone (including me) will think he is a massive asshole (OK....do we really need to read your meanderings about how intellectual you are?).
Of course he is right...as I well know. When I get up in the morning I am full of free energy.....by the time I get home at night I have very little free energy. Of course I can alter the entropy of the system by inputing energy (read: add cast strength single malt to the system)...but eventually I am doomed to return to a state of low free energy.
When you really think about it at a high level everything that happens in the universe is easily explained by our basic scientific laws (newtonian physics, thermodynamics)....until of course you dig deeper .....now why in hell would you want to do that?
Of course he is right...as I well know. When I get up in the morning I am full of free energy.....by the time I get home at night I have very little free energy. Of course I can alter the entropy of the system by inputing energy (read: add cast strength single malt to the system)...but eventually I am doomed to return to a state of low free energy.
When you really think about it at a high level everything that happens in the universe is easily explained by our basic scientific laws (newtonian physics, thermodynamics)....until of course you dig deeper .....now why in hell would you want to do that?
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by Dezakin » Fri 06 Jan 2006, 01:00:30
Talking about entropy on scales of less than huge superexponential number of years is essentially unimportant in terms of energy. We'll have a heat sink until our basic heat sources are less than 10^-29 K, where unrah radiation dominates. What we are conserned about today is the first law rather than the second.
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by Falconoffury » Fri 06 Jan 2006, 03:37:23
The problem I have with the laws of thermodynamics is that they tell us that energy just moves in one direction, greater dispersal. Life shows us feedback loops. Some organisms consume carbon dioxide and release oxygen. Other organisms consume oxygen and release carbon dioxide. I think that thermodynamics is a great way to explain chemical reactions that create heat (such as fire), I don't think it's the answer to everything. The heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us that an uncertain amount of energy exists in any quantum system at any given time. Energy is everywhere in the universe on some level.
"If humans don't control their numbers, nature will." -Pimentel
"There is not enough trash to go around for everyone," said Banrel, one of the participants in the cattle massacre.
"Bush, Bush, listen well: Two shoes on your head," the protesters chant
"There is not enough trash to go around for everyone," said Banrel, one of the participants in the cattle massacre.
"Bush, Bush, listen well: Two shoes on your head," the protesters chant
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Re: "The purpose of life is to disperse energy"
by Doly » Fri 06 Jan 2006, 10:24:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Falconoffury', 'I') think that thermodynamics is a great way to explain chemical reactions that create heat (such as fire), I don't think it's the answer to everything.
Before you say that, find an example where thermodinamics doesn't work. You won't find it.
Of course, I'm assuming here that you talk about what the physicists call thermodinamics, not what Monte calls thermodinamics, which has little to do with science.
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