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DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby Revi » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 14:18:23

Maybe people will move to Syracuse to live in the DestiNY mall. Who knows? It could be a cool place to be. I lived there in the 70's and it was a decaying industrial wreck of a place, inundated by snow because of the lake effect. It may revitalize the place! They will have to shovel and sweep those solar panels off in the winter!
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby Seadragon » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 14:30:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I')sn't that the way it used to be? And still is, in some older cities. The shops are downstairs, the family who runs the shop lives upstairs.


Yeah, that's the first thing I thought of: didn't we used to have those? Weren't they called towns or villages or something like that? Just step out your front door and walk to whatever shops you wanted, stopping to talk to your neighbors along the way? Nah, must have been some dream or hallucination I had.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 14:36:30

I suppose I could accept DestiNY for what it is: an attempt at green-building, but on an exceedingly destructive suburban paradigm, akin to pouring biodiesel in your Hummer. To the average American, it's a step in the right direction: you can have your consumerist cake and eat it too. To anyone in the know, however, it's but another unsavory compromise in the quest to continue a lifestyle that never really had a future without cheap oil. This is actually worse than your typical suburban mall in that it causes an unwarranted rationalized association of such ideas as mass-consumerism and sustainability, ideas that couldn't be further apart, holistically speaking.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby falser » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 14:56:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I') had this idea once and came up with a concept that will blow your minds. Here we go, hope you're sitting down for this... what if people could LIVE in the mall? You could step right out of your home and there would be shops and restaurants and entertainment everywhere around you. And there would be a kids' area with a lawn and great trees for them to play around in, and you could see it from the window of your office on the upper levels of the mall. And since it would be a bit bigger than a regular mall, we could link the areas around the mall with a train system.


You haven't played Sim City have you? They're called Ecologies. And they work really well for about 200 years or so before the alien spacecraft targets them for destruction.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 15:02:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('falser', 'Y')ou haven't played Sim City have you? They're called Ecologies. And they work really well for about 200 years or so before the alien spacecraft targets them for destruction.


This was the best arcology that you could build in SC2K:

Image

65,000 people in there, 1 block long, 1 block wide, couldn't have been more than 1,000 ft tall. Amazingly efficient, self-contained environment. Too bad it exists only in computer games, though. :-D
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby Daryl » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 16:16:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I') had this idea once and came up with a concept that will blow your minds. Here we go, hope you're sitting down for this... what if people could LIVE in the mall? You could step right out of your home and there would be shops and restaurants and entertainment everywhere around you. And there would be a kids' area with a lawn and great trees for them to play around in, and you could see it from the window of your office on the upper levels of the mall. And since it would be a bit bigger than a regular mall, we could link the areas around the mall with a train system.

I call this revolutionary scheme the "Living Mall". It's going to be the wave of the future!


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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 18:00:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('o2ny', 'a') place where people can consider the benefits, technical merits and environmental pitfalls of sustainable building.


If it did that, I would wholeheartedly agree. It does not. There is nothing sustainable about a building that requires 60 megawatts of electricity. In fact providing that amount of electricity from biofuels and photovoltaics probably does more destruction than powering it off of fossil fuels would have.

I do think that photovoltaics and biofuels can be an improvement over fossil fuels, but it is not a categorical difference. The difference lies in the localization of power production and management. By localizing those things, it is easier for people to understand what they are using and it is an incentive to use less. A photovoltaic house is apt to be more energy efficient. Not because photovoltaics are any less destructive of a technology than a coal power plant, but because the owner has to pay for each watt of photovoltaic, while the costs of a new coal power plant are spread out and obsfucated. Similarly someone who grows their own biofuels will be more conservative, not because agriculture is less destructive than oil drilling per se, but because they will see obviously both the amount of fuel being used and any adverse enviromental impacts of the energy production.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby FairMaiden » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 18:51:23

Its laughable to say "oh we should just give up and go home" bc we don't like the idea of this mall. I like the idea of COMMUNITIES where I can live, work and play withing cycling/walking distance. Whats wrong with that? Its not flashy enough? But it works! PO aside, when we lived where we worked - we CARED about what happened to it. We noticed the activity in our area and we were safer for it. Why not try building something that actually used less energy - not just alternatives. I read somewhere that architecture used to look at the landscape before they designed anything so that things like trees could be used to shade your home instead of air conditioning. Those are the kinds of practises I would like to see...
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 06 Dec 2005, 19:25:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FairMaiden', 'I')ts laughable to say "oh we should just give up and go home" bc we don't like the idea of this mall.


I don't think anybody's laughing at the idea of sustainability and communities - in fact, I'd venture to say that's what most of us are striving for. But the idea of a sustainable mall? Please. That's like designing a sustainable Wal-Mart - it's a contradiction in terms. The absurdity of it transcends any ostensibly hopeful goals the owners might have had for such a project. As such, it's fair game for harsh derision.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby falser » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 00:31:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')his was the best arcology that you could build in SC2K:

http://www.angelfire.com/games2/zealgam ... /ArcoB.jpg


Ah that's right, it's "arcology" not "ecology". It's been a while. That image isn't working, but here's another:

Image
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby Revi » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 14:23:38

I have a friend who lives in a 4000 square foot house that uses less oil than my 1200 sq. ft. house. His is super insulated and earth bermed. Why couldn'e everybody live in a 1200 sq. ft. house that used 1/4 the amount of resources our houses use now? Why not walk to shops and farmer's markets? Take mass transportation to the next town, or off to places over 5 miles from your own town. Have a very lightweight NEV to get around close to town. Charge your transportation off the photovoltaics on your roof. Use passive and active solar to provide most of your energy needs.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby cube » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 20:51:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I')sn't that the way it used to be? And still is, in some older cities. The shops are downstairs, the family who runs the shop lives upstairs.
I think the buzz word now is called "smart growth". However, IMHO it smells more like a bleeding heart liberal attempt to micro-manage the economy by setting up zoning laws that go against the free market system.

I bet some of you guys may remember your city government's failed attempts to "revitalize the downtown" during the 80's and 90's. There was a city council election where I lived and one of the topics was, "What should the city do with the downtown?"

MOST political candidates gave grandiose plans of "revitalizing" the downtown.

I remember this one candidate who point blanked said, "the government should do NOTHING. Let the free market system work it out." Ha ha sounds like my type of politician! However as you might have guessed he did not win a city council seat. :roll:
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Wed 07 Dec 2005, 23:06:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') think the buzz word now is called "smart growth". However, IMHO it smells more like a bleeding heart liberal attempt to micro-manage the economy by setting up zoning laws that go against the free market system.


Pot, meet kettle. I believe you'll find those most defensive about free-market ideas are also those championing further expansions of the socialist interstate system so they can continue to plow the countryside under in Wal-Marts, Exxons and McDonalds. I can excuse the hypocrisy from republicans (when is a dog not a dog?), but I can hardly grant a pass for those claiming to be libertarians.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') bet some of you guys may remember your city government's failed attempts to "revitalize the downtown" during the 80's and 90's. There was a city council election where I lived and one of the topics was, "What should the city do with the downtown?"

MOST political candidates gave grandiose plans of "revitalizing" the downtown.

I remember this one candidate who point blanked said, "the government should do NOTHING. Let the free market system work it out." Ha ha sounds like my type of politician! However as you might have guessed he did not win a city council seat. :roll:


Yeah, I remember a plan like that in Oklahoma City. Well, they DID revitalize an area called Bricktown, which is now the tourist and entertainment destination of choice for the state. Ditto with Dallas and their DART system, paying off in billions of dollars of development along the light-rail lines. So I guess investment in an area isn't always a bad thing. But apparently you have an axe to grind, so whatever.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby WisJim » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 00:20:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', 'I') call this revolutionary scheme the "Living Mall". It's going to be the wave of the future!


I think we used to have something like this--we called them "neighborhoods" in "small towns".
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby cube » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 00:54:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '.')..
I believe you'll find those most defensive about free-market ideas are also those championing further expansions of the socialist interstate system so they can continue to plow the countryside under in Wal-Marts, Exxons and McDonalds.
...
Where did you get that idea? I believe YOU are mistaken. I believe individuals/society should have a say as to where their tax dollars go even if it doesn't meet some tree squating environmentalist "standard". Freeways are paid thru taxes. It seems that the public considers freeways to be important enough to pay taxes for. And if the public is willing to pay more taxes for more freeways then what's wrong with that? Shouldn't the will of the people be honored? Make no mistake there have been numerous times when the majority voted in favor for things that I thought was plain stoopid (like subsidising businesses to "revitalize" the downtown)....but hey this is still a democracy right?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut apparently you have an axe to grind, so whatever.
How do you know that this "Bricktown" area came about purely thru government intervention? Maybe it would of turned around on it's own with or without government help....perhaps thru the freemarket? Furthermore can you safely say that the money gained more then offset the money that had to be invested?

More often then not businesses/industries/ and yes even entire neighborhoods that came into existance thru subsidies tend to die off when their "handout" gets pulled. For as long as they exist they become a drain on the government's treasury.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 11:36:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')t seems that the public considers freeways to be important enough to pay taxes for. And if the public is willing to pay more taxes for more freeways then what's wrong with that?


Drivers and non-drivers alike pay for the freeway system, whether they want to or not. In fact, 28% of the budget for the DOTs come straight out of general appropriations. And hypothecated taxes (like the fuel tax) run against the tenets of the free-market. Last time I was at the gas station, I wasn't given the option to spend my tax money on sidewalks or transit, as might occur with other forms of taxation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'S')houldn't the will of the people be honored?


Now, that's what I like to hear cube, especially since nearly 2/3 of the populace supports increased funding for rail transit. But it's not very libertarian of you, comrade. :roll:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'H')ow do you know that this "Bricktown" area came about purely thru government intervention?


I never said that it did. But a $238 million dollar tax increase to build a convention center, ballpark, music hall, central library, an 1/4 mile long canal and the revitalization of local streetscapes sure had a lot to do with it. All of this, of course, falls into your category of 'failed downtown revitalization' plans that, of course, never work according to cube.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'M')aybe it would of turned around on it's own with or without government help....perhaps thru the freemarket? Furthermore can you safely say that the money gained more then offset the money that had to be invested?


Of course it was a good investment. Nearly $500 million in private investments, with another $680 million in development. I'm not the one asserting that government intervention is always BAD - you're the one making such an assumption. As with the DART plan in Dallas, the few hundred million that is invested in an area by installing transit or pleasant streetscapes can (and does) result in billions of aggregate private development. Considering the logistical and financial nightmare of a private entity having to acquire a string of properties on the free-market in order to assemble such a system (or freeway) is unthinkable. The interstate system would've never been built without eminent domain, a true anathema for all free-market types.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'M')ore often then not businesses/industries/ and yes even entire neighborhoods that came into existance thru subsidies tend to die off when their "handout" gets pulled. For as long as they exist they become a drain on the government's treasury.

So, what's your thinking on TIF districts, which represent another form of hypothecated taxation? After all, the area is only capturing the taxes which they (themselves) generate. Many free-market types also consider TIFs to be subsidies, but I sure see a lot of freeway strip malls getting built with them. Would you disagree?

Edit: I couldn't agree with you more on ending subsidies to ailing businesses/industries. But I'm sure our definitions on 'subsidies' differ somewhat.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby cube » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 14:28:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '.')..And hypothecated taxes (like the fuel tax) run against the tenets of the free-market...
I disagree. Taxes do not necessarily run against the ideas of the free market. The argument for why we have fuel taxes that are much higher then the regular sales tax is because somebody has to pay for the roadways. What can be more fair then to ask a motorist to pay for the roads that he has driven on? A fuel tax is the easiest way to implement this. It sure beats putting a toll entrance on each freeway on-ramp. Now if you slapped a fuel tax and diverted it to public transportation then that goes against the free market. You're making someone pay more money for gasoline so somebody else can have a cheaper bus ride. (BTW subsidies are the sacred cow of environmentalism and liberalism)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..Now, that's what I like to hear cube, especially since nearly 2/3 of the populace supports increased funding for rail transit. But it's not very libertarian of you, comrade. :roll:
What's the old saying? It's not what people say it's what people do that really matters. I'll agree with you 100% there's A LOT of people out there who like to talk but when it comes to choosing their prefured method of moving around you'll see everybody on the freeway and not at the bus stop. :P

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..Of course it was a good investment. Nearly $500 million in private investments, with another $680 million in development. I'm not the one asserting that government intervention is always BAD -
I don't doubt there must of been at least 1 government scheme that turned out okay. But the odds are so bad you'd have a better chance of winning in Las Vegas. I'd rather take my chances on the freemarket rather then government intervention.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..
Edit: I couldn't agree with you more on ending subsidies to ailing businesses/industries. But I'm sure our definitions on 'subsidies' differ somewhat.
I've noticed a lot of people tend to suffer from a severe case of "selected vision". They are very quick to point out foul play when they see a subsidy for something they don't particularly like, but when one exists for their sacred cow somehow they don't really see it as a subsidy but more of an "investment". *cough*

Summary
Subsidies exists for many things (a little bit of everything to keep everybody happy regardless of their political affiliation). However I firmly believe if we all woke up the next day and all subsidies magically disappeared, basically the value of every product and service would be based on it "fair market value" and not some government manipulated price, without question just about every environmental/liberal idea would stop dead in it's tracks.

Cube's definition of subsidies
Government cannot produce wealth. They can only push money around. They can take money from one person and give it to another but in the end it's a zero-sum game at best. A subsidy is when government makes something cheaper then what it really is. This of course can only be done by making something else more expensive. Taxes and government mandates are the most common tools used to make this happen. Not all subsidies are bad per say.

my 2 cents
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 14:39:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '.')..And hypothecated taxes (like the fuel tax) run against the tenets of the free-market...
I disagree. Taxes do not necessarily run against the ideas of the free market. The argument for why we have fuel taxes that are much higher then the regular sales tax is because somebody has to pay for the roadways. What can be more fair then to ask a motorist to pay for the roads that he has driven on? A fuel tax is the easiest way to implement this. It sure beats putting a toll entrance on each freeway on-ramp.


You basically ignored my point that highways don't pay for themselves.
Only true user fees, like direct tolls (however inconvenient you may find them) is the only way that highways have ever paid for themselves.

If fuel taxes are such a great funding mechanism, then why aren't all taxes footwear-related and bicycle-related used to fund pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure? Oh, that's right, the segregation of the tax structure for the maintenance and profligation of the things being taxed would cripple the economy.

:roll:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'W')hat's the old saying? It's not what people say it's what people do that really matters. I'll agree with you 100% there's A LOT of people out there who like to talk but when it comes to choosing their prefured method of moving around you'll see everybody on the freeway and not at the bus stop. :P


I said 'rail transit.' Since that option is not currently available in many areas, for whatever collusionary reasons by our government, we can't use it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I') don't doubt there must of been at least 1 government scheme that turned out okay. But the odds are so bad you'd have a better chance of winning in Las Vegas. I'd rather take my chances on the freemarket rather then government intervention.


I call that bet. Show me your free-market roadway system - you know, the one that doesn't shovel its externalities like pollution and deaths upon the nondriving, taxpaying public. The interstate system is government intervention, plain and simple.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')'ve noticed a lot of people tend to suffer from a severe case of "selected vision". They are very quick to point out foul play when they see a subsidy for something they don't particularly like, but when one exists for their sacred cow somehow they don't really see it as a subsidy but more of an "investment". *cough*

Again, pot meet kettle. I never said that transit or highways didn't constitute government intervention (or 'investment', or 'subsidy', whatever). You're the one fawning on and on about our supposedly free-market economy.

And I'm not being inconsistent in my position that a responsive government can (and should) play a part in basic infrastructure. And if the masses can't afford $4/gallon gas and would prefer riding the rails instead, then why isn't the government listening? The ineffectualism of the American government with all things infrastructure is currently appalling. Freeways are a dead end, yet we keep building them.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')Subsidies exists for many things (a little bit of everything to keep everybody happy regardless of their political affiliation). However I firmly believe if we all woke up the next day and all subsidies magically disappeared, basically the value of every product and service would be based on it "fair market value" and not some government manipulated price, without question just about every environmental/liberal idea would stop dead in it's tracks.

Liberal ideas like high homeownership, single-use zoning and free roads for all? Oh wait, those are the ones that conserv...err, I mean libertarians like so much.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'N')ot all subsidies are bad per say.

Do tell which government intrusion you prefer to those that would come about in the free-market. Are they the ones that benefit you the most? Probably.
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby the_red_pill » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 16:41:34

This DesitiNY mall thing is the biggest bunch of crap I've seen in a long time. I used to live near Syracuse and this is a desperate attempt to create a tourist trap for a desperate city. Either way, IMHO, this thing goes is bad:

If it succeeds, other greedy corporations will jump on the bandwagon and the next thing you know, every city from Kalamazoo to Klamath falls will be building one. A big box store selling cheap crap from China that disguises this blatant support of the US-destructive global economy with alternative energy powering is a friggin' joke! Syracuse is in ruins because of big box stores!! No jobs!! Hello? The building itself is not being built for efficiency and creating another gigantic parking lagoon to look at! Oh boy!

If it fails, which I'm sure it will, Syracuse will be stuck with this enormous pig of a building and taxpayers, who handed over lots of breaks, will be bilked out of millions. Think of all the resources being wasted to produce it! Before it falls, it will destroy what is left of any local economy (stores in the city, etc) not to mention hurt sales in other malls.

People are going to drive to this thing? Syracuse is the middle of upstate NY, is hours away from a major city (unlike Minneapolis and its megamall) and the roads are horrific in the five month long winters. They think they are going to get people to FLY there??? Syracuse has nothing to offer outside the university. I could be wrong, but I just don't see this working for very long. Not to mention, putting this together at the opening of a pending economic downturn? Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I think the developer is just trying to cash in on most people's ignorance of what green really means and is using the biodiesel and other technologies for electric generation as a come-on.

I should set up a website that offers to broker the sales of used PV panels and wind generators once this thing falls down. :-D
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Re: DestiNY Mall in Syracuse

Unread postby cube » Thu 08 Dec 2005, 18:43:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'Y')ou basically ignored my point that highways don't pay for themselves.
Of course freeways do not pay for themselves, that's why we pay taxes for them. I can't think of any government program that pays for itself. Just b/c something doesn't pay for itself doesn't make it wrong. If the public says, "Hey I'm willing to pay taxes for this." Then what's wrong with that?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, that's right, the segregation of the tax structure for the maintenance and profligation of the things being taxed would cripple the economy.
I actually wouldn't mind if transportation was set up this way. For example if 100% of road costs were paid thru fuel taxes and some toll roads we'd might have $4/gallon gasoline. But then again a public transit bus ride could cost close to $10....basically public transit would stop dead in it's tracks.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') said 'rail transit.' Since that option is not currently available in many areas, for whatever collusionary reasons by our government, we can't use it.
I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') call that bet. Show me your free-market roadway system -
Since when did I ever mention a "free-market roadway system"?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he interstate system is government intervention, plain and simple.Government intervention by popular demand! Perhaps you missed my post when I said "Shouldn't the will of the people be honored?"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd if the masses can't afford $4/gallon gas and would prefer riding the rails instead, then why isn't the government listening?Where I live, in California, the public is always talking about expanding public transit (rail included) but when it comes to actually approving new taxes to pay for the expanded services well I think you know how the story ends. Something tells me the rest of America really isn't that much different.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')reeways are a dead end, yet we keep building them.Maybe yes maybe no....but the public is still willing to pay for them. Shouldn't the will of the people be honored? damn I could of sworn I heard that mentioned before somewhere??? :wink:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'L')iberal ideas like high homeownership, single-use zoning and free roads for all? Oh wait, those are the ones that conserv...err, I mean libertarians like so much.I do not believe in creating a society where there's high home ownership. The value of a product in general (yes a house included) should be based off the free market system. If that makes owning a home more expensive and thus lowers the home ownership rate then so be it.

As for free roads for all that's been around before the word liberalism was even coined. The ancient Romans and the Incas had a pretty impressive roadway network. Roadways in general don't "pay for themselves" but they are still necessary. That explains why governments throughout history have paid for their upkeep.
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Intermediate Crude
 
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Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
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