[lonewolf]

redacted

[mgibbons19]

how is that going to address all the externalities of cars though? If it goes that fast, still uses fuel... how are we not going to run into the same set of problems.

I like the earlier posts talking about removing the government subsidies for the thing, and letting the government costs fall on a gas tax.

That and remove the low end restrictions on vehicles. In such an environment, ppl might use scooters (which they were doing anyway in the face of high prices), Segways, and bikes. The family hauler may well be a $2500 electric golf cart. We already have lighter cheaper vehicles that don't need airbags and such. We just need to let ppl use them. Let ppl realize the costs of car ownership and maintenance, and bikes segways scooters golfcarts will all be attractive options. And that way no one is saying "thou shalt not drive an SUV" which kind of bothers me in an anarchist sort of way. Follow new urbanist design principles, and re-village-ize the suburbs as much as possible, and we have the beginnings of a solution.

Also regarding weather. Minneapolis sucks. It always sucked. It sucked when the norwegians and swedes settled there and got around on x-country skiis. It sucked when the chippewa and fox wandered around on long snowshoes. A sport ute makes it nicer, but doesn't address the fundamental suckage of winter up north. I don't know that in the face of higher fuel costs, we can assume the priveledge of 70F inside air in our vehicles. But this just reinforces the point of workable/walkable urban density. If we cannot hop in a and 4WD across the city for our morning commute, it will be awful nice to only live .25 miles, which would be a nice 5 minute ski.

[stephenV]

True, I'm not advocating a solution, just a stop-gap that might help the transition. For me the weather is a BIG deal. It just isn't acceptable to be sweating at work. I can't think of many jobs you have to leave your home for where it is. If I have to work up a sweat going to work, I need to be able to clean up before work. If it's raining, I need to be able to change clothes at a minimum. Very few places have facilities for that. While in the military every work center had those facilities, and it made even my daily 8 mile commute very do-able by pedal power. I don't have those facilities at work now, so the bikes just sit.

I'd be willing to bet convincing someone who wears makeup or has a complicated hair style to take care of that stuff at work is going to be one of the more difficult parts of a non-auto transition. It's not a matter of convincing them they need to stop driving their car or work closer to home, we're talking about a wholesale adjustment to a lot of people's self image. And that kind of resistance is universal, regardless of income, location, and everything. People don't want to appear "in public" without their morning whatever, and if their conveyance isn't weather-tight they will have to. It's one reason the subway is so successful, where they exist.

But you also have to begin somewhere. If you begin with building an infrastructure that supports "slower" moving vehicles as commuter options, as in "slow vehicle" lanes and the like for getting into the city from the 'burbs then you will have roads and such for them that are tons safer for non-motorized traffic too. If there was a 2-lane road going from Milwaukee to Chicago, for example, that is only for vehicles that physically can't go over 55mph, that's a lot safer road to ride a bike on then any others. Maybe safe enough to get some folks along the route to go in and out of the cities on it by pedal power. Traffic on that road would be slower, Rt. 66-esque road-side shops would spring up, the PACE would be forced to slow. The towns along that road would re-open the little mom-and-pop hotels and cafes long since closed, for the people who wouldn't be able to make the trip in an hour anymore and would be forced to spend the night or eat dinner somewhere. The small towns would see progress.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the direction I think we need to be going. Everyone complains about the pace of life these days, but transitioning out of it needs to be progressive too. Again, you've got to start somewhere.

[mgibbons19]

yeah, you're right on. it's funny how many of the solutions are right there in front of our noses. but we ignore them for some hopefule dream that is more based on faith than reality.

rail, NU development, bikes, golf carts, quads, segways, and slowing down would ameliorate this crisis with the tools we have.

Almost by definition those will be the ones we don't use.

[bentstrider]

Speaking of the Route 66, has anyone been on that part that runs near Ludlow, CA?
Plenty of shuttered establishments along the way.
I even feel sorry for the Kelso rail depot that is just now only beginning to become a tourist spot.
As the poster said a few lines before this one, a slow transition to slow and easy travel would spring these things back to life.
I say let the supersonic freeways rot, and lets all ride trains and enjoy the country-like roads.
Besides, part of the fun is getting "there".

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mgibbons19', 'y')eah, you're right on. it's funny how many of the solutions are right there in front of our noses. but we ignore them for some hopefule dream that is more based on faith than reality.

rail, NU development, bikes, golf carts, quads, segways, and slowing down would ameliorate this crisis with the tools we have.

Almost by definition those will be the ones we don't use.

[kmann]

1-Better public transit! That will draw people out of their cars.
2-The humble bicycle -- the most efficient way to get around.
3-A new technology that hasn't been invented yet.
4-Market forces will take care of it.
5-Better urban planning and tax penalties/incentives.
6-We should not eliminate the private automobile. Cars are good.

How about all of the above.
1 is only doable with a certain population density and therefore dependant on 5.
2 requires resonable distances and is not for everyone.
3, well there's alway hope.
4? Few people are going to be doing much driving at $30 + per gallon.
6, you can't eliminate the private auto but you can reduce its footprint to an acceptable level. I recently read that during WWII rationing limited a person to 3 gallons per week. If we had 100 mpg cars that would be 300 miles. If all the other pieces were in place, there would be no need to drive more than that.

[Kez]

Here's a simple idea for replacing gasoline cars as they are today in America:

Your local dealership sells a 100% electric car, along with the solar panels, batteries, solar cells, and various hookups needed to charge it up. Or a local mechanic who specializes in such a system converts your car to electric. You stick the panels on your roof and store the enegy in your car and in batteries.

Now before you shoot me down, just let me say that I think this solution makes a lot of sense, but that it will never get done in my lifetime for many reasons which I'll list later.

Benefits:

1. Oil can be saved for planes and big trucks, extending the sustainablility of oil by many years, and keeping costs low.

2. No new massive countrywide infrastructure is needed, just individual panels and wiring at everyone's house or apartment.

3. Car companies and the car service industry can keep their jobs by changing over to electric.

4. Solar panels would have to be mass produced which should help lower the cost a bit.

5. Natural gas and coal can be used for the existing power grid.

6. The technology as I understand it for electric vehicles is pretty good and there is no huge energy loss.

7. In my research of solar panels, I am finding that they last much much longer than people think. I don't know if this is some secret that big oil is trying to squelch or what, but I have found that these things last for a very long time. Improvements to how they are made should make them last at least 50 years and companies will provide 50 year warranties.

8. Doesn't involve platinum, or massive undertakings of mining tar sands or something found a mile deep in the ocean, and doesn't need to be converted to oil/gasoline, sent down a pipeline, refined, then trucked to someplace that you drive to.

9. Existing car bodies can be fitted with electric engines for less than
$10,000.

10. The Government can issue tax rebate incentives to use them.

11. Pollution will go down considerably.

12. They can be fitted to plug into your normal electric slot in your garage in case the sun hasn't shined for a few days where you are.

13. New homes can be fitted with these things, and the cost rolled into the mortgage.

14. It's infinitely easier for a terrorist to put a big wrench in the current oil system by blowing up a refinery or a major pipeline than it is to cause problems with individual solar charging stations.

15. Everyone would enjoy no longer being dependant on others for their fuel expenses. Just make one big purchase and every 5 years replace and recycle the batteries.


Things that tell me this will never happen:

1. Solar panels are expensive and they can't be mass produced today in the numbers it would require. We would still need some technological breakthrough so they could be much more affordable first.

2. The sun doesn't shine enough for what people will need unless they have a pretty big investment in the panels & batteries.

3. People drive during the day, so the panels will need to charge up some battery pack, and then transfer that energy to the car when it is parked at night. So there will be an energy loss of some kind.

4. Homeowner's associations don't like having tons of solar stuff on roofs.

5. Good solar panels already have 25 year warranties, yet nobody seems to care, they are interested in saving a buck today. Oil is still relatively cheap. People still don't like these things and there would need to be a massive campaign to let the public know how good they really are.

6. People don't want to put up with smaller cars, not being able to go as far, having to charge it constantly, having less air conditioning, less speed & acceleration, and less big SUV type amenities found in cars. In essence, oil has spoiled the typical American and it's hard to go back, and riding a bicycle is out of the question for millions.

7. Car companies keep pushing gas guzzlers. They are pretty ignorant and I don't see how they will suddenly wisen up and change for many years.

8. People who just bought new cars, and people strapped for cash won't be able to change until 5 years or so when they buy a new car.

9. The batteries in the car wear out. There will need to be tech. advances here too. Pretty darn big advances too because we will need batteries for the car itself, and batteries for the solar panels to store the energy while you're driving around away from the panels. This I think is a critical element as to why the whole solar industry isn't doing so great. The panels last a long time, but the batteries do not and are almost as expensive.

10. Not only does the typical American consumer care little about the future, neither does the government. We would need a leader who cares about the future instead of caring about getting re-elected or making sure his party gets re-elected. I see about a 0.01% chance of getting someone like Lincoln or T. Roosevelt to come shake things up and force people to change for the better.

11. All these parts for the cars and the solar charging system require a lot of energy to create, so in the short term we will be losing a lot of energy to build everything.

12. Americans are already busy enough, they don't want to be bothered with checking their battery charge and whatnot, they just want to get in their car and go. These systems would have to be very easy to maintain and monitor, and that will cause the price to go up a lot.

13. You would think that such a system would be in pretty high demand today, wouldn't you? I would be willing to pay a lot more today for it. But the reality is that there is no demand for such a system, and only major tech. advances or gasoline at $12 a gallon will change that. If I wanted something like this done today I'd have to do so much work on my own, and I'm no pro so I would have to mess with everything constantly to keep it working.

14. And the most important reason I think, even assuming we had all the materials, leadership, and technology to make it happen, there isn't enough time to build everything before massive problems from our dependence on oil begin.


I would be willing to spend thousands trying to make this work for myself, but my homeowner's association won't even allow solar panels, so I'll have to move first.

[azreal60]

You know, something occured to me while reading this. What you really need to do is go talk to the goverment body that regulates your home owners association, and convince them to make it illegal to forbid solar panels. It should be alot easier as governing bodies tend to be more liberal than a home owners association.

Other than that, sounds like a good plan, I can't follow it for a bit though as i have no initial capital investment.

[gt1370a]

You can bet that people at companies like GE are looking at stuff like this, and if a cost-benefit analysis shows it to be profitable, it may happen; otherwise it won't.

[Caoimhan]

Two big problems:

1. What size installation of solar panels will you need to sufficiently charge your vehicle? If you have a 10kW system, you're looking at maybe 50-60kWh/day. Is that enough to charge your car?

2. Where is your car at during the daytime? Mine is at work. Hmmmmm....

[Daryl]

From what I've been reading so far, it doesn't look like solar panels are there yet, but down the road there is little doubt that personal transportation will one day be by electric car, powered by home solar. I don't think 20,000 bucks worth of panels even powers an entire small energy efficient house, much less today's larger homes. Right now you can spend 30K to convert your car to electric and install solar panels and you still aren't self sufficient.

Use search function to find Starvid's posts on nuclear energy. That and coal can be used as a stopgap to expand the electrical grid until solar is ready. If you search my posts you will find alot of debate going on about electric cars.

The auto industry will try to sell plug in hybrids (more profitable), but gas is going to get so expensive that people won't want them. In the long run, we will end up with electric personal vehicles, which will likely always be limited in range vrs ICE's, and expanded mass transit, more rational urban planning, expansion of Amtrak. All good stuff.

[Daryl]

Also, none of these changes can take place until there is an energy shock. Only in a crisis can the decisions can be made. The politicians already know what's going on. Read these articles published this year by two plugged-in (no pun intended) neo-cons: Charles Krauthammer and James Woolsey.

http://www.theday.com/eng/web/news/re.a ... EC2B55EFAF

http://www.evworld.com/library/Woolsey_ ... 4Apr05.pdf


Krauthammer calling for a gasoline tax is like Teddy Kennedy supporting the death penalty. That's how quickly things can turn.

[orz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')olar panels are expensive and they can't be mass produced today in the numbers it would require. We would still need some technological breakthrough so they could be much more affordable first.

[aahala]

About twice a month the last 15 years, somebody or another has announced a breakthru in solar cells.

I looked at that nanosolar site and it's not entirely clear when exactly
they will be selling stuff or the approximate price. They certainly like to
use the word "ubiquitous". I also noticed in one of their press releases
they used the word "unprecedented" in consecutive sentences which
must be unprecedented in itself.

I'm from Missouri, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Frank]

This type of scheme will only work if we drastically change our personal transportation expectations.

One gallon of gas is about 120,000 BTU which is about 35 kwh. If you have 5 hours of sunshine/day then you need 7000 watts of panels - this is a lot. (These are ballpark numbers obviously.) If your one gallon of gas gets you to work in the morning, then you need twice that - assuming you'd like to get home once in while.

Present day vehicles are too big, too heavy, and too inefficient. They need to be redesigned so they weigh half as much, then maybe we'd get somewhere. Don't misunderstand me, I like the idea of EV's but we're not ready yet. Go to www.rmi.org and search for Hypercar to learn about Amory Lovins ideas.

[grabby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Frank', ' ')

Present day vehicles are too big, too heavy, and too inefficient. They need to be redesigned so they weigh half as much, then maybe we'd get somewhere. .

[Revi]

Your idea is exactly what I have been thinking of. John Howe has a vehicle that charges off solar. Works fine. Why not charge a
GEM Car? I bought a Giant Lite electric bike, and am thinking of charging it off solar. I would like to simply have a charge controller and charge it off 24 volt DC solar, but I may have to invert to run it off 110 AC because it has a charger that works now. I found a company in California that is making a small locker/shed you can park your electric bike or scooter in that has solar panels. It'll charge two bikes at the same time, and could draw off the grid if necessary. When I saw that I knew that there is hope for this world. Necessity is the mother of invention. If they had one of those at your workplace you could charge while you work. My bike only takes a few hours to charge and goes for a week. Your idea of a solar powered electric vehicle makes so much sense that I'm sure that someone somewhere is figuring out how to make it work now.

[Revi]

Here's the website of the company that makes the solar electric bike lockers. They invert to 110, so anyone could plug any electric bike in. It holds two bikes! I want one at my workplace!

http://www.ameribike.com/catalog/bike/solar/solar.html
Solar electric bike locker

[grabby]

This is great idea, some businesses may want a few of these to show how green they are. It looks like good PR and you may even get a write up in the local papers if you are one of the first to implement in your area.
I bet the boss will want to ride it.

Anyone have experience or sites where we can buy solar electric bikes of various types? Which one work well.