My parents stopped growing corn when they couldn't keep crows out of the corn in their organic garden.
Also as oil prices increase, you'll have a more difficult time ordering biological pesticides.
I think organic gardening is the only way to go in the future but it simply will not yield as many vegetables in the future. It'll cost more too and the vegetables won't be as attractive as the vegetables we see in store now.
PeakOil is You
Conservation, Doom, Madness
Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness
by deafskeptic » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 14:54:29
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deafskeptic - Peat
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness
by Ludi » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 15:55:07
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deafskeptic', '
')I think organic gardening is the only way to go in the future but it simply will not yield as many vegetables in the future. It'll cost more too and the vegetables won't be as attractive as the vegetables we see in store now.
')I think organic gardening is the only way to go in the future but it simply will not yield as many vegetables in the future. It'll cost more too and the vegetables won't be as attractive as the vegetables we see in store now.
Well, that's just not true. The Biointensive method yields are higher than industrial ag yields for vegetables.
http://www.growbiointensive.org/
These comments are very frustrating and make me sad. I feel you are well-meaning, caring people, but you are so set in your ideas, you won't accept information which is contrary to what you think you know.
Crows can be a problem with corn, they always have been. That didn't keep people from growing corn in the past. Personally, I have a lot of trouble from armadillos.
- Ludi
Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness
by deafskeptic » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 16:10:12
Thanks for the link. I think my parents have used some biointenisve methods (double dug raised beds and composting) and thanks for the link. There's a lot I need to learn. This looks like it'll work very well.
I am open to a lot of stuff as I'm aware there's a great deal I don't know.
I wonder if crows prefer prefer the supersweet kind of corn to the regular corn grown for corn bread and grits and such.
I am open to a lot of stuff as I'm aware there's a great deal I don't know.
I wonder if crows prefer prefer the supersweet kind of corn to the regular corn grown for corn bread and grits and such.
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deafskeptic - Peat
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Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness
by Ludi » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 16:14:05
I wasn't able to grow sweet corn because racoons ate it, but I had no major "pest" or varmint problems growing field corn (specifically Tohono O'odham 60-day corn).
I hope that link will help some other folks. If I were able to help people learn more about growing food, I'd feel I was doing something of value. But here at PO.com, it doesn't go over very well, usually....
I hope that link will help some other folks. If I were able to help people learn more about growing food, I'd feel I was doing something of value. But here at PO.com, it doesn't go over very well, usually....
- Ludi
Re: Conservation, Doom, Madness
by ashurbanipal » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 20:26:14
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')any practitioners of organic agriculture do not experience problems with "pests" and in fact don't recognise insects as "pests" but instead as indicators of unhealthy plants.
While I practice organic agriculture in my (very large) back yard, I disagree with this notion. A plant can be perfectly healthy and still be attacked by pests (which are, by definition, organisms that attack plants that humans are trying to grow). Pests will make the plant unhealthy, and thus host to even more pests. The only way to control this process is by limiting the number of pest organisms, which in turn requires either pesticides or biological controls. Organic agriculture relies on the latter, and I have argued that there won't be enough of them to go around.
Agriculture right now has such high yields because those yields are predicated, in part, on almost NO pest organisms. We spray such toxic chemicals on our food that the pest organisms die.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')liot Coleman has organically farmed successfully for decades in Vermont and Maine without use of pesticides.
I've never heard of Elliot Coleman. But I'll take you at your word; my point is that his success, or Fukuoka's success, or Seeds of Change, or other such success stories, are not analyzed well enough. When you look at what it would take for everyone to try to follow their methods, you come quickly to understand that it just isn't going to happen. Sans fertilizers, pesticides, and water pumped via diesel engine pumps, the vast majority of Oklahoma (where I live) will become non-arable. Organic agriculture requires an immense input of manual labor, a little luck, and the right location. There aren't enough right locations to go around.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou seem to expect these methods to somehow translate to industrial agriculture scale.
I do not. I think they won't, and can't. That's my point.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy?
Because if they do not, we're in a doomer scenario. Industrial agriculture is what supports the world's population. Without it, many billions are screwed.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ith less petroleum, industrial style agriculture won't be possible, probably.
No, not probably. It absolutely can't.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ur manner of growing food will simply have to change.
This reminds me of corporations cutting benefits but calling it a "benefits program change." Of course our methods will have to "change." Part of the "change" will entail growing about 1/6th to 1/8th less food than we grow now. Again, surely you understand the implications of this.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his doesn't seem a bizarre concept to me,
)
