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THE Slavery Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Doly » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 11:05:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crow', 'T')he modern idea behind slavery is very simple: make people you slaves without them knowing it.


A slave is somebody who has a master that they have to obey because he has the right to kill him if he doesn't.

Most of the cases you mention are not in that situation.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Jake_old » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 11:36:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 's')lave (slv)
n.
1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.
2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: "I was still the slave of education and prejudice" Edward Gibbon.
3. One who works extremely hard.
4. A machine or component controlled by another machine or component.


I am a subject not a citizen, I am owned by the queen. bitch.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:40:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')A slave is somebody who has a master that they have to obey because he has the right to kill him if he doesn't.


you aren't referring to prisons right? even heard the phrase "go for an elevator ride"? its amazing what people can live through. in prison you obey or you suffer. its that simple, you've a slave to the will of your unit/block etc.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 15:47:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'I') am a subject not a citizen, I am owned by the queen. bitch.


You will know who you are owned by when the conscription papers drop through your door.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Ebyss » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 16:40:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SurvivalAcres', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ccording to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.


Now who says America is no longer a manufacturer of quality produce?

I believe the animal programs are very successful in brightening the lives of hardened criminals. I also don't have a problem with making people work for their keep; that's how all of us live... we have to work for our keep. Slavery is a different thing. It all depends on context and conditions. Lots of us do jobs that we don't get paid for, that doesn't make us slaves. How long are the hours these prisoners work? What are their options? What are the requirements for being "allowed" to work? How much does it cost the tax payer to "keep" a prisoner? Why should criminals not work for their keep? At what point does a work program in a prison become slavery?
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

I am only one. I can only do what one can do. But what one can do, I will do. -- John Seymour.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Jake_old » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 16:52:41

rogerb wrote

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou will know who you are owned by when the conscription papers drop through your door.


Too old by now.Phew. Glad I'm not a chav.

We go to war whether or not we consent, and the military in theory one day could turn royalist. Not really sure if that would matter to me, either way or the other.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 20 Oct 2005, 18:15:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'r')ogerb wrote

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou will know who you are owned by when the conscription papers drop through your door.


Too old by now.Phew. Glad I'm not a chav.

We go to war whether or not we consent, and the military in theory one day could turn royalist. Not really sure if that would matter to me, either way or the other.


Royal Anglians, Royal Artillery etc, in fact the only one that isn't Royal is the SAS.

Technically the military still is royalist. It swears allegience to the crown not to parliament. Have a look at Clare Short's Bill to require a vote of parliament before going to war. Currently it's a cabinet decision which is technically an extension of the privy counsel.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Jake_old » Fri 21 Oct 2005, 09:15:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ave a look at Clare Short's Bill to require a vote of parliament before going to war.


I am watching this. Being 100% cynical about almost everything nowadays, I can't help thinking that this will not happen. I'm sure Short means well and I don't know how it would be stopped.

Perhaps the Lords reject it and then the parliament act (or whatever it is that allows us to overrule the Lords) is not used for this Bill.

Lets face it, we used it to ban fox hunting which is far more important and a useful use of tax money. :wink:
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 22 Oct 2005, 01:40:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou will know who you are owned by when the conscription papers drop through your door.


That's what the second amendment is for.

If I get drafted, I will make this government MY bitch to the best of my ability, no matter the certainty of my death. They want to draft me? They'll lose at least 5 of their men should said men not leave the property which I dwell post warning.

You're only a slave in so far as you are willing to be a slave. Are you willing to die to be free? Are you willing to sacrifice the lives of other slaves attempting to make you join them in order to stay free? Are you willing to be considered a traitor, and perhaps hunted down like an animal should you kill to be free, and not be killed yourself?

The right to bear arms exists for a reason. But it is worthless if it goes unused come time that totalitarianism finally comes to affect your life in a much more major manner. Hell, considering that all around us others are being affected by totalitarianism today and have been for decades, it may be too late. But the sad truth is, most(including myself), will do nothing until they are affected. At the present, most of us have goals and dreams we hope to fulfill. I want to get through college and become an engineer, for instance. But should that dream be threatened via conscription or other enslavement?

Show those seeking to conscript you the barrel of a gun. They don't leave you alone? Hope you kill them before they take you down. You live? Consider yourself lucky and get the fuck away from civilization for good. Maybe start over and try to achieve those goals you have, or even make new ones to accomodate the changed circumstances.



Back on topic, peak oil could cause more blatant forms of slavery to return. We have the possibility of indentured servitude returning, and the beginning steps are underway with this new bankruptcy reform that illegally changes theframework of existing contracts. As earlier mentioned, there is the threat of conscription. Should we see a hard crash that collapes our government, the first world nations will see slavery akin to the third world of today, with corporations trafficking slaves of all sorts, be they sex slaves or cheap labor(Hell, said slaves are often transferred over American soil!). We will see increased calls for the government to give handouts to the masses, but in return the government will grow larger and further its control over the population. In an effort to keep society from collapsing during and after peak, the government will further slide to totalitarianism as well in an effort to keep tabs on the population and quell dissent. We are again already seeing this in a post 911 world where our constitutional freedoms are being eroded to maximize corporate profits and government revenue. Once peak's effects start to show, said corporationas and government won't want to lose control and will further consolidate their power at everyone else's expense. Less rights, longer working hours, less pay, more taxes, and if you speak up, the square peg will be smashed and split so that it fits into the round hole.

As mentioned ealier, slavery is already in the form of the prison system in this country. A Criminal Justice professor at the University I attend(St. Louis Univeristy), Dr. Chuck Terry, has spent many years in prison for posession and use of heroin. In the late 70s and early 80s, many a time has he tried to participate in labor strikes in which the prisoners were paid pennies on the hour, but FORCED to work. The strike was quelled with lethal force, including gunfire with live ammunition by the prison gaurds. IIRC, a few prisoners were even killed. Brief mention was made in the media, but it was quickly forgotten since the media claimed it was a prison riot. This occurs quite often, apparently, and too often for comfort prisoners in America wind up dead this way. He also told me of a time in which a mentally handicapped man was in pain and needed his medication, which the prison was refusing to provide at the time. This handicapped man was apparently unable to sleep for approxamately 10 days straight from intense pain, and eventually started banging on the walls to get attention. Guess what the prison gaurds did? They came in, beat the man until he was nearly dead, and let him lay there in his own blood. The prisoners got angry at seeing such abuse and they too were beaten, shot with pepperballs, and otherwise assaulted while they were in their cells.

Abu Gharib is in our own backyard and has been for a few decades. It's just getting worse today. Peak oil? Better know how to use a fucking gun, and be prepared to choose between enslavement or death if it comes to it. Don't worry about those slaves willing to carry out their orders to conscript you. Recognize they have lives, friends, and family like you do, respect that, but realize they are making the choice to put their life on the line when they step onto your property and refuse to leave lest you join them. If you think about it rationally, their choice should be easy: get the fuck off your property so they can be garunteed to live, or face the possibility of death trying to carry out someone else's issued orders that has no significant benefit, immediate or otherwise, to those carrying out the orders. They are making the decision that their orders are more important than their own lives and the freedoms and rights of others. Insolent fools they are, yet sadly so much more capable of reason but unwilling to excersize it. Too bad people aren't rational. Some are willing to kill and die for circus peanuts not knowing any better, just because they are told to, and if they are that stupid should they ever attempt to conscript me, in which they will be given ample warning to leave, perhaps it will just be Darwinism at work. Chances are, I'd receive a Darwin award as well, but better than becoming a slave, imo. If not? Yippie! Mount their heads on my front porch like trophies and get the fuck outta' dodge!

The best case scenario is I be left the fuck alone. No conscription for me means no fuss for those seeking to conscript me. Best of both worlds, at least as far as I'm concerned. In the grand scheme of things, the individual is best able to look out for himself, while although highly noble to look out for others, enacting large scale positive change is virtually impossible on a grand scale. On an individual scale, one is more likely to be able to shape the results as they pertain to them. One that attempts to do both is worthy of praise and is a very rare character. Such a person usually stands out in history and is recognized should they succeed in making change, yet is often assassinated by the powers that be. The vast majority fail on a large scale but succeed on a smaller, immediate scale(ie. volunteer workers) and are just as worthy of praise, but only differentiated by their overall impact upon the greater society.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby MagnoliaFan » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 10:39:30

During the next few years of the peak oil crisis, there will be two options for most people who want to survive:

1. Indentured Servitude
2. Subsistence Farming + Hunting and Gathering

These two options represent the best case scenario--assuming that there is a slow crash and no social collapse.

Most people will choose the former. I know that we look upon 'slavery' as a great evil here in the pampered West, but during the times of non-plenty, this system will be far more moral and superior to the law of the jungle. Many Christians are in shock when they actually read the Old Testament and it's cavalier attitude towards slavery. Even Jesus counsels a runaway slave to return to his master and be a good servant.

Slavery is the natural economic system for humanity when it doesn't have access to fossil fuel energy. That's why God in the Bible doesn't really say anything bad about it.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby foodnotlawns » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 14:23:56

I agree with Magnolia Fan. Slavery may be distasteful, but it was only the Industrial Age that caused the "abolition" of slavery, and as the Industrial era passes, so too will "abolition."

However, it's better to keep slaves of one's own race, as it's likely that your descendants will be interbreeding with the descendants of your slaves. Kind of like European feudalism, instead of Southern Plantation Slavery. Just as we grow plants that are appropriate to their climate, we should encourage people to live in the same climate that evolved them.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby crow » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 17:20:54

The strong will do what they need to do to survive and be confortable. If that means doing it on other people's expense, they will do so.


Never underestimate the cruelty of your fellow man.
NEOPO is an excellent example of that.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby MagnoliaFan » Mon 24 Oct 2005, 18:54:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('foodnotlawns', 'I') agree with Magnolia Fan. Slavery may be distasteful, but it was only the Industrial Age that caused the "abolition" of slavery, and as the Industrial era passes, so too will "abolition."

However, it's better to keep slaves of one's own race, as it's likely that your descendants will be interbreeding with the descendants of your slaves. Kind of like European feudalism, instead of Southern Plantation Slavery. Just as we grow plants that are appropriate to their climate, we should encourage people to live in the same climate that evolved them.


One thing that strikes me odd about the Old South was that the plantation owners could have at any time, repatriated it's african slaves to Africa--especially when it was evident that the abolitionists were forming a political majority--the writing was on the wall. The common soldier of the South was fighting to preserve the economic system of the aristocracy and in the end, they lost the war by attrition.

Now we see the end result of the abolition movement--a voting bloc that goes 90% for the Bolshevik candidate while the "conservative" one toes the politically correct party line in order to be "electable".

There's nothing new under the sun with what is going on. This happened during Ancient Egypt, Greece and the Roman empire when the conquerors lost the will to impose itself on the conquered. The generation that creates a great civilization will produce a generation that is doomed to see its downfall.

The end result of multiculturalism is civil war. Spain was conquered for centuries by the African Moors, and the Christians and Moslems supposedly lived peacefully and even "mixed" together. What happened in the end? The "Reconquista", Inquisition and the conquest of the New World by the Spanish probably killed more people to rival the bodycount of Communism in the 20th century.

Right-wing revolts are never a pretty thing. And they will happen a lot more often during peak oil.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 01:46:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know that we look upon 'slavery' as a great evil here in the pampered West, but during the times of non-plenty, this system will be far more moral and superior to the law of the jungle.


One could argue the contrary. Many civilizations were free of slavery even without access to cheap oil. Some Native American, aboriginal, and African tribes serve as perfect examples of societies free of this vice.

Further, it is entirely possible to argue the 'law of the jungle' scenario as morally superior to slavery, depending upon one's own set of values.

Should things turn sour post peak, I will make it my goal to personally kill every last slave owner I see. To exploit a person for their labor in exchange for resources when those resources originally belonged to no one in particular says a lot about one's own views towards others. Soviet style 'communism' comes to mind. Some 'more equal than others'...
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby foodnotlawns » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 06:30:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know that we look upon 'slavery' as a great evil here in the pampered West, but during the times of non-plenty, this system will be far more moral and superior to the law of the jungle.


One could argue the contrary. Many civilizations were free of slavery even without access to cheap oil. Some Native American, aboriginal, and African tribes serve as perfect examples of societies free of this vice.

Further, it is entirely possible to argue the 'law of the jungle' scenario as morally superior to slavery, depending upon one's own set of values.

Should things turn sour post peak, I will make it my goal to personally kill every last slave owner I see. To exploit a person for their labor in exchange for resources when those resources originally belonged to no one in particular says a lot about one's own views towards others. Soviet style 'communism' comes to mind. Some 'more equal than others'...


My my, such tough talk. Sounds like a college kid . . . who plays too many first person shooter video games.

You know in the real world you aren't an invincible, immortal, inexhaustible "character" that can move effortlessly and has an inexhaustible supply of bullets, and can just "get back up" after getting shot or hit.

How will you even know who's a slave owner and who isn't? You might see from a distance that there's a farm, and lots of people are working on it, and are darn happy to be doing so!

Here's a more realistic scenario -- you'll want to shoot a slaveowner . . . who doesn't hire you :-D
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Doly » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 07:31:23

Slavery usually assumes that the slaves are not part of the original community. Africans were enslaved in America, but not white people; the Greeks and Romans enslaved people they invaded, but not their own.

If society broke down, I wouldn't expect a supply of slaves from somewhere else to appear.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 07:48:00

Toecutter is 100% right.

I can't believe there are people here who would bend over and accept being a slave.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby crow » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 08:01:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Battle_Scarred_Galactico', 'T')oecutter is 100% right.

I can't believe there are people here who would bend over and accept being a slave.


I would bend over and accept being a slave long before I bend over to die.

A live slave is better than a dead-man.


but that's just how you see your priorities. I value life higher than freedom, but others value freedom over life. the two sides can be debated extensively.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 08:10:25

If that's your decision that's perfectly fine.
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Re: Slavery and Peak Oil - discussion

Unread postby Jack » Tue 25 Oct 2005, 08:54:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'S')lavery usually assumes that the slaves are not part of the original community. Africans were enslaved in America, but not white people; the Greeks and Romans enslaved people they invaded, but not their own.

If society broke down, I wouldn't expect a supply of slaves from somewhere else to appear.


I beg to differ. There were indentured servants - slaves for a term, as opposed to slaves forever.

People indentured themselves to pay for passage from England.
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